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#41 bladerunner_35

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:05 AM

Gobbo said:

It seems to me that the system is a cross between the things I love about WFRP3 and the 40k games…

 

 

I'd love to hear more on why you feel this is so!


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#42 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:24 AM

Sister Callidia said:

The nice part about these dice are that it is easy to allocate difficulties. Things harder? Just put down some more bad extra dice Got a gadget that gives you a bonus? add a dice. It is quite elegant and easy to use.

I don't understand how maybe getting a random bonus from a gadget by adding a die is easier and more elegant than just getting a flat bonus (+3, +5, +10 etc.) from said gadget. To me it seems more cumbersome and massively more time consuming to keep adding more and more dice, roll them, then interpret said dice to figure out what happened than it is to just add up any bonus or penalties, roll your dice and see if you accomplished the task or not.

I have never been overly fond of dice pool games. They just seem to slow things down while people debate over how many dice they get or try to sort out the roll after the fact.

 



#43 Manchu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:05 AM

Sister Callidia said:

It is quite elegant and easy to use.
An elegant mechanic for a more civilized time.

As to advantages and disadvantages -- and I don't have my copy yet so I am just think of boons and banes here from WHFRP 3E -- the point of these dice is testing more than degree of success or failure regarding what a character, NPC, or "monster" intends to do.  They're also prompting the players to think about incidental consequences, both positive and negative, of their actions.



#44 Callidon

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:54 AM

ItsUncertainWho said:

 

Sister Callidia said:

 

The nice part about these dice are that it is easy to allocate difficulties. Things harder? Just put down some more bad extra dice Got a gadget that gives you a bonus? add a dice. It is quite elegant and easy to use.

 

 

I don't understand how maybe getting a random bonus from a gadget by adding a die is easier and more elegant than just getting a flat bonus (+3, +5, +10 etc.) from said gadget. To me it seems more cumbersome and massively more time consuming to keep adding more and more dice, roll them, then interpret said dice to figure out what happened than it is to just add up any bonus or penalties, roll your dice and see if you accomplished the task or not.

I have never been overly fond of dice pool games. They just seem to slow things down while people debate over how many dice they get or try to sort out the roll after the fact.

 

 

Rather than debating bonuses, or having to memorize a bible's worth of modifiers for lighting conditions, quality of gear, conditional modifiers, etc to a skill test….  You simply run down a list of conditions on the spot.  Let's say you want to do an Astrogation check because the Hutt's gangsters are ON your behind.  What the heck was in that crate?!

 

We'll set the base difficulty at 3 Challenge. 

Do you have training in Astrogation?  Expertise + Characteristic Dice. (or whatever the dice are called in SW)

Do you have a nav computer? Advantage.

Are you crunched for time?  Disadvantage. 

Are you traveling a well known trade route?  Advantage. 

Are you trying to shake pursuit with non-standard micro jumps? Disadvantage. 

Are you being assisted by Chewbacca?  Advantage

Roll the pile

You succeeded!  But you rolled a *critical bad symbol*. 

The good news is that you arrived safely 3AU from Ord Mantel's star and the gangsters don't appear to be following you.  The bad news is that there seems to be a fire in the hyperdrive chamber and the ships computer has initiated an auto-pilot lockout and your credentials don't seem to work to unlock it.

Sure you could wade through charts (or memorize modifiers if that is your want).  But the above can be completed by the seat of a GM's pants without any concern over applying the wrong modifier or arguing with a rules' lawyer over minutiae.  Dice pool games are not for everyone, but this is an intuitive system that makes interpreting the dice part of the game instead of just that thing you have to do to move on.

 

 


STUFF:

Edge of the Empire: Talent Trees; Force Powers; Character Sheet

 


#45 Manchu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:06 AM

Great example write-up!  And that doesn't even get to stuff like delays or stances.



#46 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:14 PM

Callidon said:

Rather than debating bonuses, or having to memorize a bible's worth of modifiers for lighting conditions, quality of gear, conditional modifiers, etc to a skill test….  You simply run down a list of conditions on the spot.  Let's say you want to do an Astrogation check because the Hutt's gangsters are ON your behind.  What the heck was in that crate?!

We'll set the base difficulty at 3 Challenge. 

Do you have training in Astrogation?  Expertise + Characteristic Dice. (or whatever the dice are called in SW)

Do you have a nav computer? Advantage.

Are you crunched for time?  Disadvantage. 

Are you traveling a well known trade route?  Advantage. 

Are you trying to shake pursuit with non-standard micro jumps? Disadvantage. 

Are you being assisted by Chewbacca?  Advantage

Roll the pile

You succeeded!  But you rolled a *critical bad symbol*. 

The good news is that you arrived safely 3AU from Ord Mantel's star and the gangsters don't appear to be following you.  The bad news is that there seems to be a fire in the hyperdrive chamber and the ships computer has initiated an auto-pilot lockout and your credentials don't seem to work to unlock it.

Sure you could wade through charts (or memorize modifiers if that is your want).  But the above can be completed by the seat of a GM's pants without any concern over applying the wrong modifier or arguing with a rules' lawyer over minutiae.  Dice pool games are not for everyone, but this is an intuitive system that makes interpreting the dice part of the game instead of just that thing you have to do to move on.

Loved the example. Thanks for making this clearer. XD


"Beg for your life. No, doing so won't save you - but it will make your death more amusing to watch."
- Vago the Hutt; Star Wars: Edge of the Empire


#47 jamesewelch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:35 AM

Awesome example! Thanks for making it a lot clearer with the dice.

 

Can someone post the chart for using regular dice? And maybe say which colored dice is for which purpose? I figured the white and black dice are for Force use, but which dice is for setbacks, abilities, etc.?



#48 adaq

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

Tensen01 said:

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

 

Ok, so while this isn't what I was hoping for in the next iteration of Star Wars rpg, much like the original d20, the revised d20 and eventually saga edition, I'm willing to give it a try.  Got to believe it can be an improvement over WOTC.

Looking over the dice monkey image, it looks like 4 d6, 6 d8 and 4 d12.  Is that correct?  While I wait for my copy of the rules to show up, I want to go pick up some blank Chessex dice and want to make sure I have the right ones.



#49 jamesewelch

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:49 PM

adaq said:

Tensen01 said:

 

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

 

 

 

Ok, so while this isn't what I was hoping for in the next iteration of Star Wars rpg, much like the original d20, the revised d20 and eventually saga edition, I'm willing to give it a try.  Got to believe it can be an improvement over WOTC.

Looking over the dice monkey image, it looks like 4 d6, 6 d8 and 4 d12.  Is that correct?  While I wait for my copy of the rules to show up, I want to go pick up some blank Chessex dice and want to make sure I have the right ones.

 

Not sure who posted this, or where it was posted, but it was in my notes:

% dice for the occurrence of "obligations" in an adventure, or look ups in assorted tables


Positive Dice
3x d8 "ability dice" to generate basic successes
2x d12 "proficiency dice" to generate successes in combination with training
1x d6 "boost dice" to generate successes pulled from story, plot, or circumstance bonuses

Negative Dice
3x d8 "difficulty dice" to oppose ability dice and cancel successes
1x d12 "challenge dice" to oppose proficiency dice with well prepared opponents
1x d6 "setback dice" to counter situational bonuses from boost dice

Force Dice
1x d12 force die to generate the entire session's resource pool of destiny points, both light (player use) and dark (GM use)

 



#50 BrashFink

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:39 PM

I completely finished the dice section… and whoever mentioned it, yeah… it is a marathon. At least 15 pages. But they are not confusing at all. Once you get it, it is pretty simple.

I will mention one thing that blew my mind in its brilliance… No need for apposed rolls. You use the NCPs Skills and Stats to add the difficulty dice into the players roll. Now THAT is just elegant.



#51 Maine

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:11 PM

adaq said:

Ok, so while this isn't what I was hoping for in the next iteration of Star Wars rpg, much like the original d20, the revised d20 and eventually saga edition, I'm willing to give it a try.  Got to believe it can be an improvement over WOTC.

Or do like I do - play Savage Worlds.  There are several quality conversions available for free (as if you really need them with SW), and the rulebook is  cheap.  SW is an awesome system, played a variety of games with it.

FFG lost me with this one, I was hoping for something original, not WHFRP in space.



#52 Maine

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:16 PM

BrashFink said:

 

I completely finished the dice section… and whoever mentioned it, yeah… it is a marathon. At least 15 pages. But they are not confusing at all. Once you get it, it is pretty simple.

I will mention one thing that blew my mind in its brilliance… No need for apposed rolls. You use the NCPs Skills and Stats to add the difficulty dice into the players roll. Now THAT is just elegant.

 

 

Not sure I'd call it elegant.  Different, sure.  But mechanically it's the same thing, just shifting the burden.  One roll vs two - makes the player feel like their own enemy.



#53 FULONGAMER

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:19 PM

As difficult a barrier the custom dice are becoming for new gamer entry, I believe one solution will be to enable those who want to to generate the dice in the easiest means possible. This means more than just "we gave you a label sheet". One of the VERY FIRST products they put up on the site, other than a Character sheet PDF, NEEDS to be a printable LABEL SHEET format of the dice. And NO, that does NOT mean a hi-rez replica of the sticker sheet in the book, that means a sheet configured to print on your average Avery or other office-max style sheet of label paper. Like a 2" x 4" shipping labels sheet.

I have severe reservations on the use of stickers and blank dice. The blank dice are NOT readily available, it took hours of searching to acquire a reasonable set. I refuse to trust stickers on pre-cut faces of existing dice, and hold the adhesives suspect till proven durable. Manual dice face placement will be prone to imbalance and the "real dice" better be damn rapid in the offing, as I am suspicious of the long-term play durability of the labels for wear and tear, environmental factors, and simple gamer sweat.

Put the tools in the gamers hands earlier and easier to overcome the self-created barriers to entry. Cross reference charts for classic dice are a stopgap patch, and you know it. (so do we) 1 Sheet of labeled dice will NOT be enough as gameplay and playtesting progresses. Even worse, when the inevitable happens and some of the Beta owners throw up their hands and chuck the game on Ebay or their local FLGS/used book store, the dice labels WILL NOT be transferred with the leavings.



#54 FULONGAMER

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:22 PM

jamesewelch said:

adaq said:

 

Tensen01 said:

 

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

 

 

 

Ok, so while this isn't what I was hoping for in the next iteration of Star Wars rpg, much like the original d20, the revised d20 and eventually saga edition, I'm willing to give it a try.  Got to believe it can be an improvement over WOTC.

Looking over the dice monkey image, it looks like 4 d6, 6 d8 and 4 d12.  Is that correct?  While I wait for my copy of the rules to show up, I want to go pick up some blank Chessex dice and want to make sure I have the right ones.

 

 

 

Not sure who posted this, or where it was posted, but it was in my notes:

% dice for the occurrence of "obligations" in an adventure, or look ups in assorted tables


Positive Dice
3x d8 "ability dice" to generate basic successes
2x d12 "proficiency dice" to generate successes in combination with training
1x d6 "boost dice" to generate successes pulled from story, plot, or circumstance bonuses

Negative Dice
3x d8 "difficulty dice" to oppose ability dice and cancel successes
1x d12 "challenge dice" to oppose proficiency dice with well prepared opponents
1x d6 "setback dice" to counter situational bonuses from boost dice

Force Dice
1x d12 force die to generate the entire session's resource pool of destiny points, both light (player use) and dark (GM use)

 

heh, that would be me, over in the D20Radio forums and the OSRGaming forums.



#55 FULONGAMER

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:53 PM

Speaking of which….need MOAR dice?

If you need more dice labels than the included sheet will generate, go to

http://osrgaming.org...&p=28474#p28474

and DL for use on Avery 48863 Shipping Label sheets. Dice sides are marked with borders to ease the cutout process.

Contact me if you want the .docx to target specific template dice.



#56 FULONGAMER

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:07 AM

Character sheets and the replica of the dice sticker sheet from the book are up on the SWFF site

http://www.fantasyfl...eidm=218&esem=4

Of course, unless you are using an aftermarket uncut 8.5x11 sheet of adhesive backed print stock, and have the laser eyes of a CSI crimelab (yellow sheets, I'm looking at you) good luck cutting the die faces. Bordered sides (takes 5 minutes with MSPaint) makes the cutout process sooooooo much easier.



#57 FULONGAMER

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

Ah, excellent forethought then. Die Edges marked they are. Carry on! (the other contentions still stand tho!)

 



#58 selderane

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:47 AM

Callidon said:

Do you have a nav computer? Advantage.

I'd say having a nav computer keeps the Difficulty die from being upgraded to a Challenge die.  I think the setting makes it clear that if you don't have a nav computer making the hyperspace calculations you're gonna find yourself inside a star quickly.

Were it my game, there's be no advantage die added to the pool because the base roll assumes it's there.


Rebel: 4 X-Wings, 1 GR-75 Transport, 2 Y-Wings, 1 A-Wing, 1 B-Wing, 1 YT-1300, 1 Corellian CR90

Imperial: 4 TIE Fighters, 2 TIE Interceptors, 2 TIE Advanced Fighters, 1 Firespray-31, 1 Lambda-class shuttle


#59 Callidon

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:55 AM

selderane said:

 

I'd say having a nav computer keeps the Difficulty die from being upgraded to a Challenge die.  I think the setting makes it clear that if you don't have a nav computer making the hyperspace calculations you're gonna find yourself inside a star quickly.

Were it my game, there's be no advantage die added to the pool because the base roll assumes it's there.

 

So…add a challenge die or leave that line item off your mental checklist as you build the dice pool?  There's nothing stopping you from building a dice pool how you want.  There may be some rough guidelines or suggestions in the fiinal product but in the end it comes down to what make sense in your game at the time.  I whipped that example right out of my behind so it may not be a perfect one.  There's also not a specific benefit that I've seen about having Chewbacca on your crew :-)

 


STUFF:

Edge of the Empire: Talent Trees; Force Powers; Character Sheet

 


#60 KommissarK

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:17 AM

Maine said:

 

BrashFink said:

 

I completely finished the dice section… and whoever mentioned it, yeah… it is a marathon. At least 15 pages. But they are not confusing at all. Once you get it, it is pretty simple.

I will mention one thing that blew my mind in its brilliance… No need for apposed rolls. You use the NCPs Skills and Stats to add the difficulty dice into the players roll. Now THAT is just elegant.

 

 

Not sure I'd call it elegant.  Different, sure.  But mechanically it's the same thing, just shifting the burden.  One roll vs two - makes the player feel like their own enemy.

 

 

But heres a nuance:

The proficiency (yellow) dice are more helpful to the players than the challenge (red) dice are harmful. Its subtle (about 1 failure less on a challenge die than a proficency die has successes), but it is there. The game slightly tooled in the favor of whoever it is rolling the test.

 

I gotta say, I'm excited to see how this can turn out. In theory, its possible to fail a test, get a threatened condition, but have rolled 3 triumphs (crit successes). So basically you fail horribly, but somehow manage to turn the odds in your favor.

Or the reverse, Succeed, get the advantage, but suffer from 3 despair (crit fail) rolls.

Or a mix of the two fail the test, get an advantage, get 3 triumphs and 3 despairs (those things don't cancel out). Of course, this is relying on a test having quite a high amount of skill backing it, opposed by a very difficult check, and rolling a highly particular value on 6 d12s. Not to mention net failures, and enough advantages. Still, in any given dice pool there are quite a few ways things can turn out.

In other words, these dice definitely provide us with better "resolution" in terms of how many discreet possibilities we can roll. The test will be to see how effective the rules are at showing the difference between 2 net successes and 2 net advantages, or 2 net successes and 1 net advantage






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