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Immune to Player Card Effects


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#21 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:17 AM

 impaulm has a really good point.  I was surprised to see that Beorn made the first box in the first place.  I was expecting it to be ALL dwarves and then we would see the non-dwarf heroes in the second box.  So the idea of an event or attachment that gives Beorn regenerate 1, or +2 def is not out of the question.


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#22 lleimmoen

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:40 AM

i was thinking something similar, i though Beorn should have had regenerate 1 but i am no designer… i really hope we shall see cards that weaken enemies, could help out Beorn some way



#23 benhanses

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:12 AM

Memetix said:

Sprenger said:

 

Immune to Player Card Effects

Cards with the text "Immune to player card effects" ignore the effects of all player cards. Additionally, cards that are immune to player card effects cannot be chosen as targets of player card effects 

It seems like in this case, that Beorn could not be targeted by Fate or Fortune even though he is in the discard pile. However abilities like Stargazer target the deck so it wouldn't apply.

 

 

I'm tempted to agree with you since stargazer wouldn't target Beorn to look at the deck, but it most certainly would effect him during the "put back in an order" part. The same would need to hold true for Gandalf's search. How you resolve these effects, I don't know.

 

Not to be contrary (which means that I'm going to be… lol), but I believe this reasoning is incorrect.  The rulebook clearly states that:

Page 25 "In Play and Out of Play":
"In play" refers to cards that have been played or put into play (in a player’s play area), to cards that are waiting in the staging area, to the currently revealed quest card, and to encounter cards that are engaged with that player. "Out of play" states are" in a player's hand," "in a deck," or "in a discard pile.” Card effects do not interact with cards in an out of play state unless the effect specifically refers to that state."

And on page 6 (under "Card Anatomy Key"), it states that:

"10. Game Text: The special abilities unique to this particular card when it is in play."

 

So, by combining those rules/guidleines, Beorn's text is not ACTIVE while in the draw deck or discard pile.  Therefore, he should be eligible for player card effects that target those areas (search cards, Landroval, etc).

I didn't have time to scour the FAQ's/updates to see if there was anything that might contradict this, I will do so when I have more time (read: NOT at work.. .lol).  If anyone has more current info, please educate me, thanks!


"... but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend...."       -Faramir, The Lord of the Rings, Book IV, The Window of the West)

 

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#24 Memetix

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:58 AM

benhanses said:

Not to be contrary (which means that I'm going to be… lol), but I believe this reasoning is incorrect.  The rulebook clearly states that:

Page 25 "In Play and Out of Play":
"In play" refers to cards that have been played or put into play (in a player’s play area), to cards that are waiting in the staging area, to the currently revealed quest card, and to encounter cards that are engaged with that player. "Out of play" states are" in a player's hand," "in a deck," or "in a discard pile.” Card effects do not interact with cards in an out of play state unless the effect specifically refers to that state."

And on page 6 (under "Card Anatomy Key"), it states that:

"10. Game Text: The special abilities unique to this particular card when it is in play."

 

So, by combining those rules/guidleines, Beorn's text is not ACTIVE while in the draw deck or discard pile.  Therefore, he should be eligible for player card effects that target those areas (search cards, Landroval, etc).

Well found, that would make sense and fits in with how I'd like the card to work.



#25 benhanses

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:52 AM

Memetix said:

benhanses said:

 

So, by combining those rules/guidleines, Beorn's text is not ACTIVE while in the draw deck or discard pile.  Therefore, he should be eligible for player card effects that target those areas (search cards, Landroval, etc).

 

 

Well found, that would make sense and fits in with how I'd like the card to work.

I haven't ran a lot of Tactics yet, and wasn't too thrilled to see Beorn's text.  It seemed a bit…. ummmmm….   Dull.  Just to be honest.

Let me clarify:  This game is really designed around its heroes.  Specifically, being able to get maximum useage out of them.  Notice how many of the "power" cards in this game are centered around that concept (UC, all the Aragorn/Glor/Elrond/Dwarven/etc. attachments).  So getting a hero (even with big stats) that will just kind of sit there, like a glorified meat-shield and be completely unable to interact with the rest of your deck except to generate rewources OR get searched for (if you are unlucky enough for him to get killed/discarded/buried) seems VERY anticlimactic. 

Despite my lack of excitement about his deck capabilities, I could see him slipping nicely into an Eagle deck perhaps.  Paricularly since Landroval is one of the FEW cards that can have any affect on him.  He would definitely fit the defend/attack theme they fill….


"... but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend...."       -Faramir, The Lord of the Rings, Book IV, The Window of the West)

 

"Since it is so likely that children will meet cruel enemies, let them at least have heard of brave knights and heroic courage."     - C.S. Lewis


#26 DarthJalapeno

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:28 AM

benhanses said:

Memetix said:

 

Sprenger said:

 

Immune to Player Card Effects

Cards with the text "Immune to player card effects" ignore the effects of all player cards. Additionally, cards that are immune to player card effects cannot be chosen as targets of player card effects 

It seems like in this case, that Beorn could not be targeted by Fate or Fortune even though he is in the discard pile. However abilities like Stargazer target the deck so it wouldn't apply.

 

 

I'm tempted to agree with you since stargazer wouldn't target Beorn to look at the deck, but it most certainly would effect him during the "put back in an order" part. The same would need to hold true for Gandalf's search. How you resolve these effects, I don't know.

 

 

 

Not to be contrary (which means that I'm going to be… lol), but I believe this reasoning is incorrect.  The rulebook clearly states that:

Page 25 "In Play and Out of Play":
"In play" refers to cards that have been played or put into play (in a player’s play area), to cards that are waiting in the staging area, to the currently revealed quest card, and to encounter cards that are engaged with that player. "Out of play" states are" in a player's hand," "in a deck," or "in a discard pile.” Card effects do not interact with cards in an out of play state unless the effect specifically refers to that state."

And on page 6 (under "Card Anatomy Key"), it states that:

"10. Game Text: The special abilities unique to this particular card when it is in play."

 

So, by combining those rules/guidleines, Beorn's text is not ACTIVE while in the draw deck or discard pile.  Therefore, he should be eligible for player card effects that target those areas (search cards, Landroval, etc).

I didn't have time to scour the FAQ's/updates to see if there was anything that might contradict this, I will do so when I have more time (read: NOT at work.. .lol).  If anyone has more current info, please educate me, thanks!

 

Just awesome dude! 



#27 impaulm

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:09 AM

impaulm said:

Maybe at some point FFG will make a "Turn into a big freaking Bear!" event or attachment card with text stating to ignore the immunity text on Beorn. That way only specific cards could be used on him. It seems messy though.

Well, I guess he already is a big freaking bear. :)



#28 Emrad

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:14 PM

Yup, so flavour-wise, it all makes more sense that he can't wear any armour or wield any weapon ^^

Clever designers strike again!

 

I'm really excited about this hero, by the way. He can basically block and destroy anyhting in early game on his own. The longer the game, the less useful he becomes, but still, blocking anything, anywhere is incredible. Who cares if he takes a bunch of damage, he's got 10 freaking hit points :)

in fact, he's the first Tactics hero I'm really excited about (well, and Háma).



#29 gerateur

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:20 AM

Can Dori use his response to take the damage instead of Beorn ?

"Response: After a hero is assigned any amount of damage, exhaust Dori to place that damage on Dori instead."

The response seems to target the damage, not the hero, so does the immunity apply ?



#30 Bullroarer Took

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:57 AM

 A very good question.


"I will not be released in the second quarter!" - Nalir the Dwarf

#31 soullos

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:44 AM

gerateur said:

Can Dori use his response to take the damage instead of Beorn ?

"Response: After a hero is assigned any amount of damage, exhaust Dori to place that damage on Dori instead."

The response seems to target the damage, not the hero, so does the immunity apply ?

I thought the same when I read Dori's effect for the first time. It seems like it might work, but then again, I'm not so sure. We need a FAQ update ASAP!



#32 gatharion

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

 Song of Mocking would raise the same question, would it not?



#33 impaulm

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:45 PM

In the Hobbit Rules it states: Cards with the text "immune to player card effects" ignore the effects of all player cards. Additionally, cards that are immune to player card effects cannot be chosen as targets of player card effects. 

I think that second sentence would mean that neither Dori or mocking would work.



#34 starhawk77

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:56 PM

gatharion said:

 Song of Mocking would raise the same question, would it not?

No, not exactly.

Song of Mocking instructs you to "choose a hero" as the target of its effect. Since Beorn's immunity text specifically prevents him from being the target of player card effects, you can't use SoM to pull damage away from him. 

Dori, on the other hand, does not interact with Beorn directly; instead, Dori just redirects the assigned damage. Beorn never becomes the target of a player card effect.

Barring an official ruling to the contrary, Dori can pull damage away from Beorn, but SoM cannot.

 



#35 lleimmoen

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:59 PM

I think the above is a perfectly correct assumption. But the "official rulings" tend to surprise. I would think it a bit anticlimactic indeed if no cards were able to combo with Beorn, unless we get some to support him later, like "All enemies attacking Beorn get -2 Attack Strength until the end of the phase."



#36 imoly22

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

Hi,

I'm still a little confused about "immune to player card effects". Not only Beorn, but also the new Smaug from the PoD "Battle for Lake-Town".

But…what about the cards that target your hero/ally/player but interact with the enemy (Smaug)? For example:

Quick Strike
[Event]
Action: Exhaust a character you control to immediately declare it as an attacker (and resolve its attack) against any eligible enemy target.

Thicket of Spears
[Event]
Text: You must use the resources from 3 different heroes' pools to pay for this card.
Action: Choose a player. That player's engaged enemies do not attack this phase.

Stand Together
[Event]
Text: Action: Choose a player. That player may declare any number of his eligible characters as defenders against each enemy attacking him this phase.

Obviously, I'm trying a tactics deck against Smaug…

 Maybe this should go on Rules sections, but I recycle this thread….

 

 



#37 Angus Lee

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:34 PM

For Quick Strike, the effect is "to immediately declare it as an attacker …", where "it" refers to the character exhausted as cost.  So the effect would involve the selected hero and Beorn cannot be chosen for Quick Strike.

Similarly, for Stand Together, "That player may declare any number of his eligible characters as defenders …", Beorn will not be an eligible character because he is immune from card effects.

However, in Thicket of Spears, the first sentense is a limitation on paying the cost of the event, but not a card effect.  So you can pay for this event with Beorn's resource.  The event's effect only target a player but not a character, so Beorn is not involved in resolving this card's effect and is legal.


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#38 wojo

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

 As I see the Smaug questions:

You can use quick strike against Smaug as it targets a character (enabling him to attack) not Smaug itself (he is not immune to being attacked after all and the card opens a special attack window)

You can't block him with ticket of spears as he would ignore its effect and still attack (other enemies would not attack though).

As for stand together it seems that it is a bit complicated and I say:
In spirit of the rules:
You could defend his attack as the effect targets "mechanics" of defending not the Smaug itself
As far as written rules go:
The way the stand together is worded it seems that each enemy is its target hence Smaug would ignore its effects and you could not declare multiple defenders.



#39 CJMatos

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:41 PM

 I agree with both Angus and wojo's interpretations


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#40 imoly22

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:51 PM

Thanks both AL and Wojo for your replies!

 But, according at how the 3 cards are worded, shouldn't work the same way? I mean, in all of them, the "action:" forces you to choose/target a hero/ally/character you control (paying it's cost). Then, the effect resolves.

So, What's the line for "immune to player cards"? Immune when the card (Smaug) is the target as part of the cost? Immune when the effect resolves, and target the card (Smaug)? Both of them?






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