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#41 Manyfist

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:17 AM

 So with the new intregrated weapons from DH, I wonder if that can be applied to Ballistic Mechandrite. It doubles plasma & Melta Clips, or seeing how it's compact, it would give the full clip. Las Weapons are fully powered by the tech-priest, and there's no recharging needed but overheating still applies. Compact Plasma Pistol using Maximal Mode every shot or having a compact Triplex Lasgun…



#42 Kiton

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:01 PM

I do believe you'd have to micro the basic weapons… Personally though I'd prefer a compact Wrath or Ripper, or better yet an Autocannon MIU. The flesh is weak: The Omnissiah frowns upon a shoulder wtihout a barrel



#43 Shadow Walker

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:50 PM

Dark Eldar Talos Pain Engine and Chronos Parasite Engine both have armour (machine) of 4. In TT game they have equivalent of SM armour so I think in OW they should have armour (machine) of at least 8.



#44 Kiton

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:47 AM

While its a bit annoying, and very very troubling for weapons like the supposedly AP3 Hellguns, part of damage resistance in the RPG line here is the Toughness Bonus.

Both engines have a 9. This actually makes them extremely resilient: a Lasgun on Overload [1d10+5E Pen 2, unreliable… still say that's not enough] loses 11 damage per hit from the combined armour and toughness. Any roll of 7 or below does nothing.

Its true that its technically a little less well protected than a marine, but, at the same time, it averages a bit over twice the wounds and deals very marginally better with high-AP weaponry, thanks to its toughness.



#45 Manyfist

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

Kiton said:

I do believe you'd have to micro the basic weapons… Personally though I'd prefer a compact Wrath or Ripper, or better yet an Autocannon MIU. The flesh is weak: The Omnissiah frowns upon a shoulder wtihout a barrel

Where can you find micro weapon upgrade?



#46 Kiton

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

Hostile Aquisitions.

But before you jump with joy, know this: The weapon's weight and range are both quartered, base damage reduced by 2, and ammunition becomes two steps more difficult to obtain.

It only functions on Pistol or Basic weapons of the Las, SP, Bolt, Flame or Plasma categories, but transforms a basic weapon into the pistol class. In either case, it applies a -30 to find the bloody thing.

Put that on your catalytic mass-driver and you've just created a devastating storm of wasted time and failure.

 

Leaves you with some questions, though. Does a legion weapon given the micro treatment still count as too-big? Does a Long-Las or Sniper Rifle lose the extra damage from Accurate due to the class-shift?

I'm still trying to find out if a daemonic or slayer-limb hunting lance has "unlimited ammunition" or if you just explode yourself into a Perils of the Warp for blowing apart a daemon-weapon the moment you strike an enemy… and is it his fault or yours [ie; who's the center of it] if and when that happens?



#47 Cifer

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

@Kiton

I'm still trying to find out if a daemonic or slayer-limb hunting lance has "unlimited ammunition" or if you just explode yourself into a Perils of the Warp for blowing apart a daemon-weapon the moment you strike an enemy… and is it his fault or yours [ie; who's the center of it] if and when that happens?

Apart from the fact that these rules belong to two different game systems and thus it's unlikely their interaction will be covered: Why would you create a hunting lance slayer-limb/daemon weapon? The idea sounds about as good as a slayer-limb grenade.

RAW, the weapon is one-use. The problem is not ammunition, it's the entire design - and daemonizing it or grafting it to your arm changes nothing about it.



#48 Kiton

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:06 PM

Well, the differences in system are themselves a little odd by this point: you'd think they would've unified the stuff, given each new book is more of a 'new edition of the rules + new campaign setting' than a whole new set of rules. Equipment in particular has a pretty strong crossover rate. Qualities from the other books get pasted straight in, and all that.

 

As for "WHY" a slayer-limb or daemonic hunting-lance or grenade, personally, no actual reason there [although with the lance's OW stats, you'd actually have a primary-class weapon capable of dealing damage, as opposed to everyone always having to go Power or Exotic or once-in-a-while Chain], but when you see possible interactions, and they aren't covered in the least… One that IS, for example, all in the same system, are the Launchers. What's standard for a missile launcher? PROBABLY krak or frag, but which? or both? And are slugs any less standard in a shotgun than just shot, when at least they're rated Common? What if you had an overcharge pack in that Long-Las there when it got assimilated?



#49 Cifer

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:10 AM

There's a thing called combinatorial explosion. If you have three parts of a system and each of them may contain ten things, you've already got 1000 combinations. If only one in ten of them proves in need of further explanation, that's one hundred explanations that you've got to cram into the system.

Now consider what BC has system-parts-wise: Archetypes, skills, talents, equipment, mutations, psychic powers, phenomena&perils and alignments. There are 8 archetypes, 27 skills (excluding skill groups), around 130 or so talents (again excluding talent groups), more than 200 pieces of equipment, 34 phenomena and perils, 45 psychic powers, 75 mutations and 4 alignments. Excluding interactions within one group (like a weapon interacting with a special ammunition), that's 2,577,744,000,000 combinations. Assuming that only one in a milliard of them is in need of explanations, you've now got two and a half thousand cases that need a ruling.

So… as long as the rulebook is not the size of certain books of law, it's rather probable that there will be fringe cases requiring GM (or group, if you're into all that democracy stuff) intervention and nothing can be done about it. The good thing about it is that unlike with video games, we have people around us who can change the system on the fly and improvise should it become necessary.

 

In your case, however, I think it's relatively clear-cut: the Slayerlimb doesn't need maintenance or ammunition, that's it. It doesn't say anything at all about the ammunition being standard issue, though as a houserule, I wouldn't allow for example psycannon-bolts without some serious additional work on the part of the player. It also doesn't say anything about single-use weapons becoming any less single-use, so they don't.



#50 Musclewizard

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:37 AM

Cifer said:

There's a thing called combinatorial explosion. If you have three parts of a system and each of them may contain ten things, you've already got 1000 combinations. If only one in ten of them proves in need of further explanation, that's one hundred explanations that you've got to cram into the system.

Now consider what BC has system-parts-wise: Archetypes, skills, talents, equipment, mutations, psychic powers, phenomena&perils and alignments. There are 8 archetypes, 27 skills (excluding skill groups), around 130 or so talents (again excluding talent groups), more than 200 pieces of equipment, 34 phenomena and perils, 45 psychic powers, 75 mutations and 4 alignments. Excluding interactions within one group (like a weapon interacting with a special ammunition), that's 2,577,744,000,000 combinations. Assuming that only one in a milliard of them is in need of explanations, you've now got two and a half thousand cases that need a ruling.

So… as long as the rulebook is not the size of certain books of law, it's rather probable that there will be fringe cases requiring GM (or group, if you're into all that democracy stuff) intervention and nothing can be done about it. The good thing about it is that unlike with video games, we have people around us who can change the system on the fly and improvise should it become necessary.

 

In your case, however, I think it's relatively clear-cut: the Slayerlimb doesn't need maintenance or ammunition, that's it. It doesn't say anything at all about the ammunition being standard issue, though as a houserule, I wouldn't allow for example psycannon-bolts without some serious additional work on the part of the player. It also doesn't say anything about single-use weapons becoming any less single-use, so they don't.

Very well said.
At the end of the day a book will only contain a limited amount of rules whereas player creativity can usually find or create situations that are not handled by the book so some GM oversight is always needed.

On an unrelated note:

Cifer said:

milliard

Are you from Germany, Austria or some other germanic country by any chance?



#51 Cifer

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:50 AM

Germany indeed - I prefer my numbers to make sense.



#52 boooh

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:59 AM

Who doesn´t ? ^^



#53 Emperor Castaigne

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:52 AM

The charge of a Daemon Weapon Hunting Lance would explode, and then gradually grow back at a time determined at GM discretion (faster in places where the Warp is strong). It can be used as a Club (still a Daemon Weapon) until the charge is back.

That's the judgement I would make, based on the other "grenade on a stick weapon", the Anoxis Pattern Boarding Pike from DH: The Inquisitor's Handbook.

Maybe include some extra warp shenanigans like rolling Psychic Phenomena centered on the point of impact.



#54 Kiton

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:49 AM

"Finally any ranged daemon weapons lose their original clip size and reload time: the daemon within produces the ammunition and consequently the weapon need never be reloaded again, though it also can only use a single standard type of ammunition." Page 194, bottom left

 

While its clear for Bolters ["no hellfire rounds"], launchers are entirely ammo-type dependent.



#55 Andor

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:36 AM

Emperor Castaigne said:

The charge of a Daemon Weapon Hunting Lance would explode, and then gradually grow back at a time determined at GM discretion (faster in places where the Warp is strong). It can be used as a Club (still a Daemon Weapon) until the charge is back.

That's the judgement I would make, based on the other "grenade on a stick weapon", the Anoxis Pattern Boarding Pike from DH: The Inquisitor's Handbook.

Maybe include some extra warp shenanigans like rolling Psychic Phenomena centered on the point of impact.

Such a bad idea..

Now I'm picturing some poor party of shmoes caught in a warp/chaos effect.

GM: "Okay the warp twists and flows through each of you, but it empowers you too. Your most powerful weapons is now a part of you as a Slayer Limb."

PC: "But … I was carrying the Atomic Breaching charge. Are you telling me I now a Melee use only atomic bomb?"

GM: "Umm.. yes? Welcome to 40k and good luck with that. If it makes you feel any better the bomb  will grow back so you can use it again."

PC: "What about the rest of me?"

GM: "How many fate points do you have?"



#56 Plushy

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 07:57 AM

 The Divination tree swings between quite underpowered (Psy Rating x2 bonus to BS and WS isn't much) to hilariously powerful (entire squad ignores cover, entire squad has a pool of re-rolls, see the entire battlefield.) Sanctioned Psykers also really do not need their Strength aptitude; perhaps Fieldcraft would be a better fit?


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#57 Kiton

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:52 AM

The BS/WS Bonus was rather incredible, and extremely popular, in Black Crusade and all that. Sure, it was perhaps a little too powerful, but its true they went a little far dumping it here. Just a little though.

Personally, I'd say just reverse the radius and %. 2m x PR radius, and 3% x PR. That would cover a very very tight, small shooting party only at PR2 for +6%, but if used at PR5, gives +15% to a 10m radius. A very substantial boost for your half-action, like giving everybody an aim action and a half. Get it to PR 8, and +24% in 16m is rather solid.

Regarding Perfect Timing,  it would probably be a little less overpowered if it allowed a shift up or down by, say, 5%xPR to the location roll. Less powerful, a bit more versatile though, and lets you deal with all but total cover up to a point. Near-misses into cover become hits, hidden arm around the corner can become Body or even other arm, but "right leg" isn't going to turn into a head-shot.






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