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Fallen Grey Knights?


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#21 daispike

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

 yep. i think it was 2nd edition and they were khornate stormboys.



#22 BangBangTequila

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:22 PM

 Pre-Matt Ward, they were incorruptible. This isn't due to some strong will. This is due to the actual starter initiate (who by the by, must be a mortal of such unparalleled faith that they would undoubtedly have risen high within the Ecclesiarchy or Inquisition even had they been passed over) being more or less completely overridden with hypnoindoctrination. So the corruptibility is minimized by the fact that the idea of corruption itself is no longer compatible with the way they think. After that, they dedicate the entirety of their lives not burning the foes of Man to devotional prayers and cementing the ironclad faith in the Emperor. Furthermore, they have their entire skeletal frame etched in hexagrammic wards, and IIRC much of their skin as well. It's not that these are incorruptible men. These are men that have had the corruptibility removed from the hardware and software of their being at every turn, and then been sealed off to ensure that nothing corruptible might ever again cast a shadow on them.

Some people don't like that they were incorruptible, but I always did. Chaos is an immutable, powerful fact of existence, that always seems to be at the cusp of breaking humanity. I enjoy the fact that in one, small way, humanity has forged one, and keep this in mind as one, small bastion that even if destroyed, will never fall. 

Untouchables aren't immune to corruption. They are immune to Psychic powers and are incredibly damaging to daemons. So they could never stand to gain power from a Dark God or mutate from the powers of the Warp, but they could still fall to the temptation of Chaos, though it would be for less ethereal rewards then strength and speed and psychic might. Likewise Xenos are just born to have no soul, I would imagine. No soul, no chance of twisting to Chaos. Interpretation, this is.



#23 Seeten

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:30 AM

Yeah. My feeling is if you are willing to bathe in the blood of the innocent you are already corrupted. Hexagrammatic wards on your pelvis or not.

Maybe the "cool factor" Matt Ward was going for backfired, I can't say, but I'll forever think of Grey Knights as Khorne's favored sons, not the favored sons of the Emperor after their Codex.



#24 BangBangTequila

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:47 AM

 Just pointing out that I don't count Matt Ward as canon. I know there is much debate about canon, but my Grey Knights don't bathe in Sororitas blood. That's called Khorne worship.



#25 Kiton

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:06 AM

Seeten said:

Yeah. My feeling is if you are willing to bathe in the blood of the innocent you are already corrupted. Hexagrammatic wards on your pelvis or not.

Maybe the "cool factor" Matt Ward was going for backfired, I can't say, but I'll forever think of Grey Knights as Khorne's favored sons, not the favored sons of the Emperor after their Codex.

Where there's a will, there's a way

And the gods of chaos have a whole damn lot of will



#26 Fgdsfg

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 08:45 AM

BangBangTequila said:

 Just pointing out that I don't count Matt Ward as canon. I know there is much debate about canon, but my Grey Knights don't bathe in Sororitas blood. That's called Khorne worship.

This.

Nothing Matt Ward has touched is canon to me. It should be buried and forgotten.


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#27 PnPgamer

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:47 AM

Who's Matt Ward? 



#28 daispike

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:02 AM

 you really do not want to know.

but seriously he works for games workshop and is renowned for taking sh@ts on everything that is cool about 40k and has a real fanboy obsession abut the ultramarines.



#29 Darthvegeta800

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:05 AM

Grey Knights are inccoruptible. Period.
Until the fluff changes drastically which happens a lot.
But this topic crops up a lot on fora… and I find it… unusual.
Having a GK turn out corrupted would kinda break the point. They are the desitned final bulwark, the paladins in extremis. The best of the best. And the one group that against all odds has a staring contest with Chaos and doesn't blink.
They might loose but they won't 'turn'.
And I like it that way.



#30 ddunkelmeister

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:26 PM

Alpha Legion marines were a welcome surprise. The decision to lump them in as unwitting Tzeentchites was….interesting. Also, inferno bolts are insane, as are Rubric Marines by extension. The book allows 1K Son Sorcerers to take them as regular minions; something I would probably change in my game.

 

On a side note, it will be interesting to see if any of the new powers will appear in the upcoming CSM codex. Daemonhunter indicated that FFG appears to have at least some advance notice of GW products.



#31 Elurindel

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

Kiton said:

If they were truly incorruptible, they would not have needed to bathe in sororitas blood to protect themselves.

This. ******* this.



#32 Cifer

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:55 PM

I agree with BangBangTequila. I don't much care for their extreme sue-status, but I think allowing a change from their incorruptibility only creates an even more unique snowflake. Bleh.

(And of course, no Grey Knight ever bathed in blood except when their battles got really tedious)



#33 Seeten

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:09 PM

You know what else might be a fun story?

An Inquisitor or Space Marine Chapter finding out about the Grey Knights bathing in blood, and having to deal with it.



#34 HappyDaze

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:50 PM

Seeten said:

You know what else might be a fun story?

An Inquisitor or Space Marine Chapter finding out about the Grey Knights bathing in blood, and having to deal with it.

Having to deal with it in this case largely means going on the run in hopes that the Grey Knights have better targets to deal with, because when they don't - you're dead. The Grey Knights are among the most over-the-top elements, and compared to them, just about everyone (including most AA Chapters) are expendable. I don't like the Grey Knights - too absolute and too extreme in the fiction (I'm not talking about being extremists in-universe - that's fine - I'm talking about the way they are presented) for me to enjoy them as a story element - but that's just the way they are in my eyes.


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#35 Seeten

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:06 PM

Finding out they are ALL chaos tainted, to the man, might be a fun high level story. Might need to bring in AA chapters, set up an elaborate trap, etc.

Might need to stuff their political connections too. I dunno, it'd be a high level story for sure, and probably has nothing to do with Black Crusade, I am guessing this thread was for a PC claiming he was a former Grey Knight.

 



#36 Capt_Dymock

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:44 PM

I think the idea of a fallen Grey Knight is interesting. Obviously it would be an incredibly exceptional circumstance, given how rigorously screened, indoctrinated, trained, and monitored (by themselves) they are, but if it makes for a good PC (or NPC) in a campaign, why not?

My feeling is that they are demon hunters. That is what they do, hunt demons. This does not mean they are utterly and completely incapable of being corrupted. They are just given the basic tools needed to do their job. An elite team of demon hunters isn't very useful if they're prone to being possessed/mind controlled by the creatures they're hunting on a regular basis. It's really just like being an untouchable. They can't be possessed, but that doesn't mean they can't be tricked/manipulated into betraying their ideals.

There is only one way to be completely, 100% immune to corruption, and that's to be the Emperor of Mankind. Unfortunately for the Grey Knights, that position has already been filled.



#37 Capt_Dymock

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:52 PM

HappyDaze said:

Having to deal with it in this case largely means going on the run in hopes that the Grey Knights have better targets to deal with, because when they don't - you're dead. The Grey Knights are among the most over-the-top elements, and compared to them, just about everyone (including most AA Chapters) are expendable.

 

I don't know about that. I don't think it's a linear hierarchy in the Imperium with the Grey Knights sitting at the top. They're just highly trained, exceptionally well equipped specialists that have one specific job. It doesn't make them more important to to the survival of the Imperium than other Astartes or even the Imperial Guard or Navy. A lot of good 1,000 Grey Knights will do if there's no Imperial Navy and Guard to stop Abaddon's next crusade coming out of the eye of terror.

The right tool for the right job. Hammer doesn't beat saw, they just do different things.



#38 HappyDaze

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:28 AM

Capt_Dymock said:

HappyDaze said:

 

Having to deal with it in this case largely means going on the run in hopes that the Grey Knights have better targets to deal with, because when they don't - you're dead. The Grey Knights are among the most over-the-top elements, and compared to them, just about everyone (including most AA Chapters) are expendable.

 

 

 

I don't know about that. I don't think it's a linear hierarchy in the Imperium with the Grey Knights sitting at the top. They're just highly trained, exceptionally well equipped specialists that have one specific job. It doesn't make them more important to to the survival of the Imperium than other Astartes or even the Imperial Guard or Navy. A lot of good 1,000 Grey Knights will do if there's no Imperial Navy and Guard to stop Abaddon's next crusade coming out of the eye of terror.

The right tool for the right job. Hammer doesn't beat saw, they just do different things.

The thing is that there are so few of the Grey Knights that it is hard to parse them down and have some of them in lesser story capacities. Organizations like the Imperial Guard and Navy have hordes of throwaways - in terms of story needs - and authors can even throw away entire Chapters of Astartes (so long as they are not a previously named and established Chapter), but no such room exists with the Grey Knights.


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#39 Blood Pact

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:55 AM

Well regarding the much-maligned new fluff. Over the years, when talking about Grey Knights, it was always made clear and pushed to the fore, that they were incorruptable ultra-purists, and so on. I liked it, you liked it, we all liked it. But over the years, the novels, Inquisitor, and FFG's line have made quite clear that being a big puritan doesn't work all the time. It strips a potential weapon away from the wielder, even as it makes them less susceptable to the lure of Chaos. The Radicals are right and sometimes you need to use Chaos to fight Chaos. To close that warp rift, to fell that daemon, whatever.

So shall the mighty Grey Knights curl up in to a feotal ball and weep like children when they hit one of those situations? Because their mandate is to keep the Warp away at all costs, no sacrifice being too great to stop daemonic incursions, rifts, and overlaps from happening. So they can either make a glorious charge to their demise as a result of their failure… Or they could suck it up, and dirty their hands a little to complete the last handed down to the by the Emperor himself.  So don't be surprised when they've got something requires them to sacrifice the still beating heart of a virgin to banish, or some other means that is 'radical', and they go right ahead and do it. It would be counter to the character of Space Marines not to carry on, doing what is required of them to secure victory. (even if it's as dumb as annointing yourself with the blood of some Soriritas)

Well congradulations, you like Matt Ward's Grey Knights more than the original (I know, I know, we're all supposed to hate EVERYTHING that Ward has done, but tell that to the many people who love the new Necrons).

And re: blood… every chaos god, and a bunch of other things love (and practically requires) blood sacrifice. The stupid thing with the Sisters is no more worshipping Khorne than it is worshipping Malal (in fact.. it'd probably be more the latter than former… oh my, Grey Knights have fallen to corruption by Malal!).



#40 crisaron

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:44 AM

- Brother i think I have a better solution then sacrificing a 100 of them every time

-yes?

- Well you see, women have this cycle every month…






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