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Week Three Update


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#21 Amaimon

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:41 AM

1. I don't like rewording of Frenzy. '

2. I agree with everyone that stormtroopers should have Storm Trooper Carapace. If you think it's too much, take away good quality from their hot-shot lasgun and armour as well.

3. Change wording for primitive quality, to better reflect their limited efectivness on modern armour (as is stated in the quality) and increase their deadlines against unarmoured targets to:

Crude and basic in design, these kinds of weapons while still deadly, are less effective against modern armour. When rolling for Damage with these weapons, against target having Machine Trait or wearing non-primitive armour, any dice roll greater than the number in parenthesis (X) counts as that number. For example, a weapon with Primitive (7) would count all Damage rolls of 8, 9, or 0 as 7. These weapons can still generate Righteous Fury as normal, on a Damage roll of 0.



#22 Andor

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:58 AM

Stormtroopers not getting Storm Trooper Carapace does seem really odd to me. Why not bump it down to normal quality if it's a power issue?

And I have a quibble with the Highborn Fluency entry. It makes perfect sense for deathworlders to be illiterate (if one allows that making them carry a copy of the uplifting primer but not teaching them to read it is very … 40k) but for the highborn?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that High and Low Gothic are using different alphabets, and therefore being literate in one of them means being literate in the other. Just like someone literate in French is also literate in German, English, Spanish or any other language that uses the Roman alphabet. Even if a few of them have an extra few characters, it's not a major impediment to learning. Indeed once you are literate, learning a new language without learning to read it is actually much more work than not. Even if you do need to soak up a new alphabet that's nothing compared to learning a new vocabulary and grammar.

So I just don't see any fluff or game balance reason for this particular rule. It simply makes no sense.



#23 Cifer

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:30 AM

@Andor

I haven't seen anything to suggest that High and Low Gothic are using different alphabets, and therefore being literate in one of them means being literate in the other. Just like someone literate in French is also literate in German, English, Spanish or any other language that uses the Roman alphabet. Even if a few of them have an extra few characters, it's not a major impediment to learning. Indeed once you are literate, learning a new language without learning to read it is actually much more work than not. Even if you do need to soak up a new alphabet that's nothing compared to learning a new vocabulary and grammar.

I disagree. While obviously uncommon nowadays, it's quite possible to learn a foreign language without learning to write it. Comparing German with French and English, the pronunciation is much different.

 

@HTMC

@Cifer: In regards to Favoured Weapons, from the Beta Updates:

“Favoured Weapons: Each regiment has weapons that its members prefer to wield, or simply have a natural aptitude for. Each regiment may choose one Basic weapon and one Heavy Weapon to be their Favoured Weapons, these weapons mat not have an Availability higher than Very Rare. Members of this Regiment gain a +10 bonus on all Logictics Tests to obtain those weapons and ammunition for them.”

I was referring to the "Add one favored Basic/Heavy weapon" entry that you pay regiment points for. Unlike other table entries, it doesn't continue with "to standard kit", so are those 1/squad or 1/trooper?



#24 JuankiMan

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:30 AM

Cifer said:

I was referring to the "Add one favored Basic/Heavy weapon" entry that you pay regiment points for. Unlike other table entries, it doesn't continue with "to standard kit", so are those 1/squad or 1/trooper?

I think it means 1/squad, like a Chimera or a LR. 1/trooper would be absurd.



#25 KommissarK

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:50 AM

Pretty sure the favoured heavy/basic weapon supply options only add 1 per squad. 1 for everyone would get a bit strange… "Lascannons for everyone!" All of a sudden, the game just turns into a matter of cranking up your SB/TB so you can lug around your new toy, get bulging biceps, then boost your BS. Instant win any real encounter by having 4-6 people with lascannons focus firing everything.

Will say the cure is worse than the disease for Frenzy. It was only semi debatable Ogryns would pass out with a -20 to int from something like that, but now we've lost some of Frenzy's greater aspects.

As far as Storm Trooper Carapace, I do feel they should start with the stuff, but it always did seem that the good quality armour was a bit much. I would be slow to give good quality armour to starting characters if only because those rules are a pain to keep track of, and the starting aspects of any specialty should be simple enough for new players.

I'm fine with Storm Troopers playing a tankier role than your average guardsman (Currently, Ogryns, Sergeants, and even Heavy Gunners posses the tanky abilities, with Storm Troopers and Tech Priests in a close second. Everything else is quite a ways off in tanky ability). They do have the carapace armour after all. Also, a base +5 T increases their ability to lug their gear around, a trait they would of built up over the years. I certainly agree they should have Offence aptitude (as Offence goes along with quite a few cool combat talents that would be the result of advanced training). With that, having the Finesse or Defence aptitude may be more appropriate than the WS aptitude (as Storm Troopers have never really been notable melee combatants). Personally, I'd like to see them with Defence, as that at least opens up another set of talents and skills that they'd probably be able to train.



#26 Kiton

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:10 AM

Stormtroopers have it rather bad when it comes to dual-aptitudes. As a support specialty they also get less starting XP, and I figured the starting kit was the reason for this.

 

As it is with the changes, the average stormtrooper would be just right [although at his limit more or less] with a total SB+TB  of 7.

By the table, modern day soldiers wearing full kit and body armor are looking at around 38kg as well.

 

Overall, I'm thinking the table is just a tiny bit too harsh: if you modify the table a little so that total 6 gives you that 45kg maximum, then the hellgun and armor plus normal kit oughta come out just right.



#27 KommissarK

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:17 AM

Once again though, with Storm Troopers, they share 3 of the 4 aptitudes that could come bonus with a regiment. Until the regiment creation rules are fixed, there is an extremely high chance that a group of players with a bit of sense will create a regiment with at least one of those aptitudes. If allowed to take Finesse or Defence, a Storm Trooper will actually become quite a competent class (Finesse for an excellent ranged combatant, Defence for a character that will be able to survive most anything).



#28 Andor

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 04:19 AM

Cifer said:

 

@Andor

I haven't seen anything to suggest that High and Low Gothic are using different alphabets, and therefore being literate in one of them means being literate in the other. Just like someone literate in French is also literate in German, English, Spanish or any other language that uses the Roman alphabet. Even if a few of them have an extra few characters, it's not a major impediment to learning. Indeed once you are literate, learning a new language without learning to read it is actually much more work than not. Even if you do need to soak up a new alphabet that's nothing compared to learning a new vocabulary and grammar.

I disagree. While obviously uncommon nowadays, it's quite possible to learn a foreign language without learning to write it. Comparing German with French and English, the pronunciation is much different.

 

I've studied 4 languages, reading and writing is the first thing I was taught every time, even for Japanese which uses 3 different alphabets.For roman alphabet languages it's no more than an hour or two to get the basic differences down, then it's all grammar and vocabulary. Once someone is literate they will usually stay literate as they pick up new languages, with the possible exception of truly horrific writing systems like Chinese or Ancient Egyptian symbolic character sets. For a mere phonetic or syllabic alphabet the barrier to entry is too low and the reward too high for someone not to learn it..

More to the point Low Gothic isn't a foreign language, it's the language 99% of the Imperium uses. It's also the language every road sign, datapad and menu uses. If the Highborn want to read the graffiti on their manufactorum walls, they need Low Gothic. Also newspapers, books, manuals and warning signs.

On the other hand this is 40k, and if I can ignore the horrific abuses committed to the laws of physics, I can live with this too.

 

On an unrelated point: I'd like to see a line to the effect that "Any additional specialist or favored weapons come loaded and with two full magazines as part of the PCs standard kit."



#29 Cifer

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:58 AM

@Andor

Speaking several languages myself, I know how they're taught. Specifically, I know how they are taught in our world, which is both big on writing and on being connected. The world of 40k on the other hand is largely segregated. A nobleborn may simply not be interested in reading a low-gothic newspaper - he's got a fine selection of high-gothic ones that deal with less plebeian issues, thankyouverymuch.

I see your point, but I'd say it's a decision that can go both ways.



#30 KommissarK

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:00 AM

Whats funny is realizing that Highborn squads will probably start to need specialists who know Low Gothic, if only to be able to read the warning labels when sent into other imperial facilities.



#31 JuankiMan

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

I found Higborns not able to read Low Gothic absolutely hilarious because that is so Imperial nobility. It's like them saying "I could learn to read your crass and backwards lingo, but who cares what you have to say? You're poor!".



#32 Andor

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

JuankiMan said:

I found Higborns not able to read Low Gothic absolutely hilarious because that is so Imperial nobility. It's like them saying "I could learn to read your crass and backwards lingo, but who cares what you have to say? You're poor!".

Penal Legionairre glances at the sign behind him that reads "Mine field" and replies "As you say sir. After you."



#33 Magus Black

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:19 PM

JuankiMan said:


Cifer said:
I was referring to the "Add one favored Basic/Heavy weapon" entry that you pay regiment points for. Unlike other table entries, it doesn't continue with "to standard kit", so are those 1/squad or 1/trooper?
I think it means 1/squad, like a Chimera or a LR. 1/trooper would be absurd.

 


Actually it reads out that it more or less depends on the character class; the Heavy Weapons Guy can get the Regiment Heavy Weapon, while the Weapon Specialist (which if I‘m reading right ‘is’ the common soldier) gets the Regiment Base Weapon …which can be anything from Autoguns to Sniper Rifles or Triplex Pattern Lasguns to things like crossbows and grenade launchers. After all these are called ‘Regiment Weapons’, they’re meant to be common sights in those groups otherwise what would be special about Regiment Weapons.

A better question would be if you can take Pistol Weapons as Regiment Weapons, or if can upgrade the quality of the Regiment Weapons (I figure you can since you also purchase more Regiment Weapons from the same chart). I’m seeing someone with a regiment called ‘The Dirty Harrys” with “Best Quality Hand Cannons” as their Regiment non-Heavy Weapon and with the specialized equipment “Man-Stopper Rounds” and “Recoil Gloves” as part of their standard gear…and with the remaining 5 points get a “Chrono” and a “Survival Suite” that’s stylish!

…Of course if the original question was “Do units that receive Regiment Heavy/Basic Weapons get both at Character Creation if the Regiment has 2 in one category?”

In that case I’d say: “No, its one or the other and is meant to only expand your options, though it doesn’t stop anyone from getting both anyways via LOGISTICS.”

I’m also throwing my Rosette into the “Why ’Light’ Carapace armour for Storm Troopers?”

The item is called ‘Storm Trooper Carapace Armour’ and therefore should be the ‘default’ item for all Storm Troopers, after all anyone can acquire it via Logistics and the whole point of the Storm Trooper is that they that they don’t have to buy it themselves, they are the elite.

A problem I’m a bit surprised that no one has said anything about is that that the Storm Trooper now has the same problem that every Class had before: Proficiency Problems that is.

A Storm Trooper that take Solid Projection Proficiency instead of Las Proficiency now has a -20 penalty to using his only weapon: the Hot-Shot Lasgun. Instead of going through lore and any unimportant material I’ll skip to the chase.

There are two ways to fix this problem:
A. Give Storm Troopers proficiency with BOTH Las and SP weapons.
B. Add a useful SP equivalent for the Storm Trooper to have instead of the Hellgun.

“A” is the simplest as it doesn’t require any major changes, the Storm Troopers get the Hellguns by default but can use just about every kind of Las or SP weapon available. This option broadens their weapon usage but unlike other talents Proficiencies don’t make characters more powerful by default and fits with their theme of ‘Elite Soldiers’.

“B” is bit more difficult because there are no SP Weapons of the Hellguns equivalent that isn’t a Heavy Weapon. Best I can tell the simplest alterative would be an autogun (of the same quality as the Hellguns: Good Quality) with either free Amputator Shells or Expander Rounds. I think this option is more of a problem than “A” so I don’t favor it.

 



#34 Cifer

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:02 PM

@Andor

As with many cultures with poor literacy quotas, I'd imagine that the Imperium provides most of its warning signs with easily understood icons in addition to the writing.



#35 MILLANDSON

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:38 PM

According to HMBC's (sic) original post about the favoured weapons in the equipment section, it was 1 per squad.


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#36 Cifer

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:49 AM

That would be… odd. Firstly, all other items are added to standard kit, making these the only items that are added to only one player's effects. Secondly, the Weapon Specialist and Heavy Gunner already have the option to add favoured weapons to their kit. And thirdly, there's a good chance that the weapon you choose won't be useable without an additional weapon training which only the Specialist and the Gunner get.



#37 KommissarK

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:57 AM

Well, the most a weapon training is going to cost anyone is 300xp. Therefore, anyone could make themselves proficient in its use (given that its not a heavy weapon that requires above and beyond what they could start with, for example trying to get the priest to wield a heavy bolter).



#38 Braddoc

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:24 AM

Magus Black said:

JuankiMan said:

 

B. Add a useful SP equivalent for the Storm Trooper to have instead of the Hellgun.

Here's s omething DH taught me

autogun+fire selector+silencer+manstopper round+ scope or red dot



#39 Jukkaimaru

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:57 AM

Adding one more request to throw in at least an option for Common Craftsmanship Storm Trooper Carapace as armor for the Stormie.  It just makes more sense that way.






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