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Black walls confusion


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#1 Ire

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:29 AM

Just noticed something weird.

Before the black wall is a plot that says "When revealed, name a challenge type. In order to declare any characters to attack or defend during challenge of that type, a player must declare all of his or her eligible characters. Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the 'when revealed' effect of the top River plot card in your used pile. " it doesn't tell any time of when the effect would end (end of round/phase). Is this effect passive or constant? and how does it actually work since it is lacking the timing information? can I trigger the effect with another river plot or not?



#2 ktom

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 01:41 AM

As written, the "In order to declare any characters to attack or defend during challenge of that type, a player must declare all of his or her eligible characters." part of the plot effect is a constant, and not actually part of the "when revealed" part of the effect.

So, there is no problem when this is the revealed plot. The duration of the effect is "while this is your active plot," the same way that something like Power of Blood is. But if this is the top River plot in your used pile, the revealed River plot isn't going to let you do more than name a challenge type. (As in - You: "Intrigue." Your opponent: "That's nice.") The "must declare all eligible" part, not being part of the "when revealed" of Black Walls, won't do anything as a used plot.

As written, that's the way it works. Whether that's what the designers and editors thought they were writing, who knows?

 



#3 WWDrakey

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:11 AM

Figured as much. *Sigh* Looks like there's a fork in this River that doesn't really lead anywhere.


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#4 Khudzlin

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:23 AM

I think it's an error in the wording, because text both before and after clearly belongs to the "When revealed" effect. There should be a stated duration, like "during the next challenge phase" or "until the end of the turn".



#5 ktom

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:32 AM

Khudzlin said:

I think it's an error in the wording, because text both before and after clearly belongs to the "When revealed" effect. There should be a stated duration, like "during the next challenge phase" or "until the end of the turn".
Probably. Doesn't change what the card says in the meantime, though.



#6 WWDrakey

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:05 AM

Honestly, I think the most peculiar point here is the "Then, …" portion that follows a constant effect.  



#7 mdc273

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

Isn't there an argument to be made that because the constant effect is part of the "When revealed…" effect that the constant effect is in a constant state of being copied until the current river plot goes inactive? The "Then" would indicate that all the text before the "Then" is a part of the "When revealed…" would it not? It's even worded in such a way to ensure that a player doesn't trigger the "Then" on a successor River plot. Also, there is no indication of when the copying if the "When revealed…" ends.



#8 Bomb

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:49 AM

mdc273 said:

Isn't there an argument to be made that because the constant effect is part of the "When revealed…" effect that the constant effect is in a constant state of being copied until the current river plot goes inactive? The "Then" would indicate that all the text before the "Then" is a part of the "When revealed…" would it not? It's even worded in such a way to ensure that a player doesn't trigger the "Then" on a successor River plot. Also, there is no indication of when the copying if the "When revealed…" ends.

It's definitely part of the "when revealed" effect.  As written, however, it has no point of expiration or duration of the length of which the effect is enforced(which basically means it's a one shot "when revealed" or a constant effect).  Because of that, it would be treated as a plot that doesn't do anything unless it is currently revealed.

It's definitely something that needs to be corrected, otherwise it's not all that effective in combination with other River plots(which I believe the designers intended to do).  It's also possible that this plot was designed to be a plot that can trigger a used River plot.  It wouldn't need the River trait, however.



#9 radiskull

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

 Fixed in the latest FAQ, in the way you'd expect.



#10 Bolzano

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:26 AM

The FAQ erratum says:

"When revealed, name a challenge type. In order to declare any characters to attack or defend during challenges of that type, a player must declare all of his or her eligible characters." is all considered part of the "When revealed" effect and is active while the plot is revealed or when the "When revealed" effect has been triggered by another River plot card..

 

1/So the plot is active "when the "When revealed" effect has been triggered by another River plot card… : in this case, no duration is specified and the effect should last all the game right?

2/Or, do we consider that the duration is limited to the framework action window of revealing the plot (since it says it is active when the "when revealed" effect has been triggered, and it does not say it is active after that).

3/Or, we may consider that since the revealed River plot says "Then, if this is your revealed plot card, trigger the 'when revealed' effect of the top River plot card in your used pile.", we decide that Before the Black Walls if active while "this (ie the other River plot) is your revealed plot card" because this is the condition when Before the Black Wall "When revealed" is triggered.

 

Personnaly, I would go for the 3rd option because it makes sense.



#11 ktom

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:35 AM

Even though the River plots say to "trigger" the topmost card in your discard pile, it is the "then" effect of the revealed plot that is resolving, not the used plot. Therefore, when "Black Walls" is triggered by the "then" effect of the revealed plot card, the duration is as long as the "then" text on that plot is revealed.



#12 Bolzano

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:20 AM

I'm not sure why you would define the duration this way : "as long as the "Then…" is revealed"?

A lasting effect has been triggered. It stays active until a defined end (here, undefined). It does not end because the card triggering it is no longer revealed.

Or did I miss your point?

In any case, we DO have the same conclusion ^^



#13 ktom

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

Bolzano said:

A lasting effect has been triggered. It stays active until a defined end (here, undefined). It does not end because the card triggering it is no longer revealed.

Or did I miss your point?

Yes and no. The problem is that FFG worded the card badly and instead of rewording the card with the errata, they tried to explain why their original wording is not bad (but it is).

As written, the "In order to declare any characters to attack or defend during challenge of that type, a player must declare all of his or her eligible characters" text is either a continuous effect (that therefore ends when the plot is no longer revealed), or a lasting effect without a duration - which lasts for the rest of the game, regardless of whether the plot is revealed or not. By saying that it is part of the "when revealed" effect, FFG made it the latter.

For revealing Black Walls itself, they took care of the infinite duration by saying "…and is active while the plot is revealed…" in the errata. What they didn't do by saying "…or when the 'When revealed' effect has been trigered by another River plot card" is create a duration for the "copied" effect - which should therefore go for the rest of the game again, right?

The only way for that not to happen is if the "…and is active while the plot is revealed…" part of the errata applies not only to Black Walls itself, but also to the "then" effect of the River plot that "copies" Black Walls.

That was what I was getting at with the earlier comment. The errata creates a duration on the Black Walls of "while this card is revealed." The only way to make this errata not stupid (ie, "work") is to extend the "while this card is revealed" duration to the next River plot through the "then" part of its effect, which is what actually triggers the used Black Walls.

 

Ultimately, FFG should just make the errata on Black Walls "Should say: 'When revealed, name a challenge type. Until the end of the round, in order to declare any characters to attack or defend during challenges of that type, a player must declare all of his or her eligible characters.'"



#14 Khudzlin

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Or "Until you reveal a new plot card", like Fear of Winter.



#15 Bolzano

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:10 PM

Makes sense! Thanks for taking time to answer again.

I'll rule it this way in tournaments (in the unlikely case somebody runs this plot, AND raise the question, which should never happen :D)



#16 Miklos

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 05:09 AM

I need some clarification on how exactly Black Walls works.

 

1. Black Walls revealed. I name Military challenge.

2. In Challenge phase, I get Arianne out of Shadows and flip To the spears.

 

Q (a): What happens with the Black Walls? Still everyone have to be declared in Military challenge if attackers/defenders declared?

 

3. Next plot, I reveal any other River plot, and copy Black Walls

 

Q (b): I name eg. Military challenge again. Does Black Walls apply?

 

4. Next plot: I reveal anything (does not matter). Then I play Flood waters event, naming Black Walls.

 

Q ©: I name eg. Military challenge again. Does Black Walls apply?



#17 ktom

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:50 AM

There is errata in the FAQ saying the effect of Black Walls is for as long as the card that resolved its effect is active. So:

 

Q(a): Black Walls itself resolved the effect, so according to the FAQ, the effect is valid only as long as Black Walls is itself active (i.e., your current plot). Using Arianne to reveal To the Spears! changes your current plot, so the Black Walls effect ends. 

 

Q(b): The next River plot resolved the Black Walls effect, so the effect will be valid as long as that River plot is active (i.e., your current plot). 

 

Q©: The event resolved the Black Walls effect, so the effect will be valid as long as the event card is active - which, without a set duration on either the event or the plot is only going to be for the action window in which the event card was played. So as soon as Flood Waters is placed in the discard pile, the Black Walls effect ends.



#18 HastAttack

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:20 AM

Well we've been playing this plot card totally wrongly!

 

I've been in games where I've run Bungled Orders and an opponent has run a set of river plot cards and had to reveal several new plot cards during the challenge phase (Melee game)

 

In such an instance, the opponent has triggered BtBW twice, affecting two challenge types even with a 3rd River plot card as their active card

 

Does the issue arise becuase there is no time reference on the when revealed?

I'm thinking of a recent clarification by ktom and just trying to understand the difference here

Once triggered, a lasting effect continues through its set duration regardless of what happens to the text later.
 

thanks
 



#19 ktom

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 08:25 AM

Yes, Black Walls works the way I described above because there is no duration specified on the card and the errata, rather than setting a duration, tries (kind of messily, imho) to turn a passive effect into a continuous effect.

#20 HastAttack

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:03 AM

Just a final clarification ...

 

Q(b): The next River plot resolved the Black Walls effect, so the effect will be valid as long as that River plot is active (i.e., your current plot). 

 

I take it that this is the agreed ruling?

 

Plot - I reveal Black Walls and choose Military

Plot - I trigger revealing a new plot card

Plot - I reveal Crossing the Ruby Ford and trigger Black Walls again - this time I choose Power

 

At this stage, the only challenge type that all characters have to particpate in is Power?

 

Challenges - I trigger revealing a new plot card

Challenges - I reveal Under the Bridge of Dreams and trigger Black Walls again - this time I choose Intrigue

 

At this stage, the only challenge type that all character have to particpate in is Intrigue?

 

 

BTW: I was never comfortable with the text "if this is your revealed plot card" - is FFG trying to imply something other than your current active plot card - i.e. it only applies during the standard plot reveal step?

 

I've assumed not but am not certain

 

thanks






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