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#21 Morangias

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:17 AM

All the reasons real shooters adopt these silly poses are made moot by the Astartes physique, training and gear. If this Costa guy could fire a miniaturized semi-automatic rocket launcher from the hip with perfect accuracy while clad in armor that makes him impervious to small arms fire, you can bet he wouldn't do all this posing.

Astartes are so skillful they literally cannot give any **** about stuff that normal soldiers have to bother with. Such is their brand of coolness.


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#22 professor_kylan

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:04 PM

AluminiumWolf said:

I just… I dunno. I think we can do better than that.

Personally, I attribute the speed, power and sheer unstoppableness of an astartes a fighting style that cannot be emulated by any human ever. Hence the concept of transhumanism. To me, being attacked by an astartes is like being hit by a locomotive that can dodge.

My Dark Heresy players once were attacked by a Khornate berzerker. They first knew of its presence when I described their attacker as , "Something red, something moving too fast to follow, something impossibly large.".

To me, astartes fight by turning everything up to 11. They don't perform fancy martial arts, because they can punch through plate steel. They don't go into a combat crouch, because they can move out of the way of any weapon heavy enough to not be ignored. They might shoot like robocop, but they move like a well aimed, malevolent car accident and you are the innocent bystander.



#23 Lightbringer

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:23 PM

I agree. Astartes would be virtually unstoppable in close combat with "normal" humans. As we're sharing videos that give a flavour of how effective they'd be, check this bonecrunching, totally unsuitable for work  video out. (the actual video is embedded on the linked page.) it's Thomas Jane's self-funded attempt to reboot the Punisher franchise. Skip to 6 minutes in for the action.  

Watch that, then imagine someone as skilled and vicious as this, but far larger and equipped with body armour that enhances their strength. It would be a terrifying prospect.    



#24 UncleArkie

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:26 PM

 I completely disagree with Astartes not optimizing shooting positions, they are consummate, efficient killers. Better trained, better equipped and stronger & faster than anyone else, but that doesn't make them stupid. If shooting right increases your chance to hit then you do that regardless of how badass marine you are and firing from the hip is rarely very optimal, just take the fact that the black carapace allows them to move in such a way that their war plate don't' make them hulking… I'm just saying.



#25 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:18 AM

UncleArkie said:

 I completely disagree with Astartes not optimizing shooting positions, they are consummate, efficient killers. Better trained, better equipped and stronger & faster than anyone else, but that doesn't make them stupid. If shooting right increases your chance to hit then you do that regardless of how badass marine you are and firing from the hip is rarely very optimal, just take the fact that the black carapace allows them to move in such a way that their war plate don't' make them hulking… I'm just saying.

Thing is, if the reasons for a particular position are no longer relevant, then the position itself is redundant. Bringing a weapon up to your shoulder and holding it with both hands for stability is made irrelevant by the strength of a space marine and the stability his armour imparts. Aiming down the sights is made irrelevant by the autosense links in the weapons that allow the firer to see from the weapon's perspective.

In essence, what's been said by myself and a few others in this thread is that many of the reasons that humans have for employing particular techniques and styles of fighting are pointless frivolity to a Space Marine, whose innate strength, speed, reflexes, coordination and durability are such that human-derived martial styles and tactical positioning are superfluous. The specific techniques and styles that the Astartes do possess will focus on dealing with foes with inhuman capabilities - creatures with strength, resilience and/or speed that approaches or exceeds that of the Astartes themselves.

Alien species function in the same way - an Ork won't fight in a way that a human can easily replicate, because the Ork's combat prowess is an instinct rather than a learned skill, and because the Ork's natural ferocity and resilience are inhuman capabilities that a human does not possess. The Eldar will not practice martial arts that resemble those of humans, because the Eldar possess inhumanly quick reflexes, astounding coordination and exceptional awareness of their surroundings.


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#26 UncleArkie

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 01:57 AM

 But brining a weapon to your shoulder to fire it is not just about stability, it's also about firing a weeping in a straight line from eye to target via the weapon, you do't get that when shooting from the hip.

As someone who knows something about weapons and martial arts I always found it irritating when people who write about it has no idea, if you write about combat know something about it, don't just think cool. It's like when there is no science in sci-fi.



#27 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:14 AM

UncleArkie said:

you do't get that when shooting from the hip.

Space Marines do. As I've mentioned at least twice in this thread alone, Astartes ranged weaponry incorporates auto-sense links that allow the warrior to see from the gun's perspective via his armour's in-built Autosenses… before you consider any other targeting-aid systems within the armour.

This is the point of all the genetically-enhanced warriors the Emperor created - to exceed the limitations of human soldiers, to fight in a manner that mere mortals cannot.

As someone who knows a little about fiction, I always find it irritating when people ***** and whine about realism when dealing with settings where reality is a vague suggestion at best. It's like when there's no fiction in sci-fi.

I deal with reality on a daily basis, and it's boring and annoying and frequently inconvenient. Why would I want to emulate that?


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#28 UncleArkie

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:22 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

 


I deal with reality on a daily basis, and it's boring and annoying and frequently inconvenient. Why would I want to emulate that?

 

 

 

Because if fiction doesn't in some way related to reality, let us take something with us, teaches us something then it has very little validity as fiction. Escapism can really only carry you so far and I am saying that it has to be absolute, but have to be realistic and consistent. The best sic-fi like Arthur C. Clarke, Charlie Stross and Ray Bradbury all had elements of realism, they knew something about tech, about the way it functions. Even the magical realism of Allende or the full-blown fantasy of Meville or Gaiman invokes lessons that can be applied to real life, gives us something to aspirer to because there are kernels of truth and realism in there, things that we can relate to. If all you do is escape then you're not developing as a person or as a writer.



#29 FailTruck

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:47 AM

There is a massive difference between "realistic" and "believable".  My group prefers to keep our game "believable" (im an 8ft warrior god who can cleave through thousands of normal men without breaking a sweat) rather than "realistic" (I could not physically exist).



#30 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:14 AM

 

What No-1 has said over and over again is Space Marines are not normal people who need to bring a gun up to eye level to shoot it properly. They basically look out the barrel of their weapons all the time due to technology. That is why the don't need to bring a weapon to their shoulder. They also don't have any concern over controlling the weight or recoil of their weapons.

The best part about your argument is that the tech to hold a gun around a corner and shoot it relatively accurately exists and is in use around the world. The problem people have is that humans are not strong enough to keep a weapon from moving due to recoil, whereas an Astartes is.

Stop trying to ascribe human frailties to Astartes and just sit back and enjoy the madness that is 40K.



#31 DJSunhammer

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:53 AM

FailTruck said:

There is a massive difference between "realistic" and "believable".  My group prefers to keep our game "believable" (im an 8ft warrior god who can cleave through thousands of normal men without breaking a sweat) rather than "realistic" (I could not physically exist).

Most Space Marines are only a bit over 7 ft actually.



#32 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:56 AM

I don't suggest these things because I think they are realistic. I suggest them because I think they look really, really cool.

+++++Bringing a weapon up to your shoulder and holding it with both hands for stability is made irrelevant by the strength of a space marine and the stability his armour imparts. Aiming down the sights is made irrelevant by the autosense links in the weapons that allow the firer to see from the weapon's perspective.+++++

Sure, but the trick is to make this look as cool as Mr. Costa running through some drills, which is going to be hard.

I mean, you could probably justify not having an external trigger at all, but I don't see anyone rushing to implement that! Same thing with shell casings - if you can get not having a line of spent brass ejecting out the side of the gun to look as cool as having a line of spent brass ejecting from the gun we can stop drawing it in!

 

 



#33 UncleArkie

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

 Believable was probably more of the word that I was looking for, sorry about that, internally consistent.

 

Question, doesn't the link-to-weapon tech sound more like Signums and MIU's?



#34 Face Eater

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:53 AM

 Much though the artwork and model stances don't really give it away but how Marines fight has been considered in the past. The Mark 6 Corvus armor has the re-enforced left shoulder because that's what they present to the enemy.

Still kind of assume's they are shooting from the hip but I imagine training plus some ubiquitous laser sighting (from the pictures this seems to be on and off) could account from that and allow them to be moving all the time.



#35 Killbeggar

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 07:39 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

I certainly don't want Marines to start wearing camouflage (camouflage being the colour of cowardice and all that).

I think the Emperor's Warbringers would take exception to that.

AluminiumWolf said:

But I think all this tactical whatnot looks totally sweet.

I can see Space Marine Scouts doing that kind of tactical maneuvering.

 AluminiumWolf said:

For me, it isn't a search for Realism. It is more looking for ways to look cool.

Definitely.

 

 

 


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We do not wear His symbol, we ARE His symbol."
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#36 .113

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:19 PM

As far as remoddeling spacemarines, the answer should be NOOOOO. It goes against the Codex :P

The reason space marines dont need a stock is because they are so bulky, especially in power armor, that they can hold a basic weapon in one hand with no penalty and still fire full auto. They don't even need to brace for using a heavy bolter. They are that big and strong.

As for all other things, I would like to see many cool pictures of marines using cover, as THEY DO. One thing I remember hearing about the space marine game, although kinda cool, was the phrasing along the lines that "space marines never use cover". Ok, granted I could see that applying to Space wolves a lot of the time (though even they use cover) or the World Eaters before they fell. But most marines use cover as much as possible.

Sure, if facing a bunch of tiny imperial guardsmen with lasguns, that probably wont penetrate their armor, yeah, they wont stay behind cover for that. But heavy weapons, tanks, bigger groups and so on YES they will. Space marines arent stupid, not even Space wolves. ;)

 

That guys unusual way to wield weapons seems like it would probably reduce recoil a bit more, but honestly I don't think it seems like a good idea anyway. It would, it seems to me at least, be more unbalanced to run around like that. In CQC you cant punch or do anything with that arm either as its already at its full length and if youre in a trench or other such thing, you can probably just lean the weapon on something else to get more stability.



#37 Blood Pact

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 03:49 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

As someone who knows a little about fiction, I always find it irritating when people ***** and whine about realism when dealing with settings where reality is a vague suggestion at best. It's like when there's no fiction in sci-fi.

What irritates me is when people ignore the explanations built in to the setting, for the existence of all (or even just some) of the wild and fantastic stuff found within it.

At running up to 30 years now, there have been so many pop and doritos (or cheesie, since those are relatively new) fueled brainstorming sessions that they've virtually hammered out all the nooks and crannies of the 40K universe. They have an explanation for most everything (almost). Because it's probably come up before. And it's still quite believable, despite how completely over the top it frequently becomes.

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't suggest these things because I think they are realistic. I suggest them because I think they look really, really cool.

Yeah… not really, they don't. I doubt even /k/ would agree with you on that.

 

Also, Marines probably also know Point Shooting like it's second nature.

Also, sighting down the length of your weapon, in practice, narrows your field of vision. Yes there's nothing there to actually obstruct you, but focusing all your attention down this one narrow corridor limits your awareness of what's going on around you, which is one of the great advantages of the Asartes in combat. They don't have to think about what's going on, they just react because it IS second nature to them, leaving their higher thought processes able to focus on the bigger picture (namely tactical and strategic planning).



#38 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:36 AM

Blood Pact said:

Yeah… not really, they don't.

You reckon?

I'd swear, for instance, that sticking accessories on your AR15 is a bigger hobby than all of wargaming ( http://www.ar15.com/ ). Youtube is full of people out on the range more or less cosplaying with tactical vests and plate carriers and whatnot. Call of Duty and similar 'military shooters' are the biggest thing in gaming.

People love this stuff. Don't they?



#39 Blood Pact

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 04:49 PM

I thought we were talking about the way they were all holding their weapons? Which doesn't look cool, no.

 

As for the general love of tacticool crap, no not everyone, and they excessively mock the ones that do. Part of the popularity comes precisely from all those those video games, and the dumb kids that play them and think they're realistic approximations of the military, and firearms.

Sometimes, oftentimes, it really deserves to be mocked too. Yes, that's real. Ivan Chesnokov would have had an anuerism over it, if not for being crushed in that tragic accident with the printing press.



#40 Blood Pact

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

Oh this place just links, I suppose bandwidth would get eaten up if it uploaded pictures… very well, that'll teach me to be lazy…

 






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