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Earth in 40k?


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#41 jabberwoky

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 04:22 PM

In the end, I don't think we'd be a profitable venture. We'd turn our own planet into a nuclear wasteland ourselves first :P

I don't know... Krieg seems quite happy to tithe billions to the Imperial Guard, and they had a nuclear crusade that lasted half a millenium.


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#42 Tantavalist

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:35 PM

Wow... I'd almost forgotten about this thread before someone worked their necromantic arts upon it. Time to make the post I'd thought about when I first read it, but then had eaten by forum errors when I tried to post it.

 

Something that people should keep in mind is that the barrage of nuclear death fired at an incoming starship by modern day Earth isn't as feasible as people seem to be thinking.

 

The only delivery system capable of hitting a space-based target would be an ICBM. In theory, these could achieve escape velocity and blast the RT's starship. In practice, that's not what they're designed for. They're meant to be fired at targets on the Earth's surface using a suborbital flight path. Also, going by the movement rates the game gives, even the slowest freighter could probably dodge aside from the missiles. Being intended to target stationary locations, ICBMs won't really have much in the way of course correction, so just moving out of the way will dodge them.

 

Essentially, shooting down a starship with ICBMs would be like shooting down a helicopter with an anti-tank missile. In theory, you could do it. A few people have in fact tried it and got it to work. But you really wouldn't want to rely on it working as your main plan for survival.

 

Now, modern technology probably could build something much more suited to target space-based enemies if there was a reason to do so. But there isn't such a reason. If the Rogue Trader didn't immediately conquer/destroy Earth, then ten years after the world'd governments realised they needed them, the barrages of hundreds of nukes ready to fly at any invaders would be sitting in silos all over the planet. But that assumes that they're given time to build these.

 

Also, the idea of the modern world being willing to commit suicide by nuking the planet and denying an invader it as well it probably not realistic. "Give me Liberty or give me Death" is a nice slogan to fuel patriotic fantasies, but actually taking it to the logical extreme when liberty isn't an option any more is beyond most people. You'll decide that your own friends and family will all die as well, just to spite your enemy? That's something most people won't realistically do.

 

And consider this- think about the people who currently run the world, the ones who'd have the authority to order the nuclear suicide- and the interests that control them. Really think about them. Then ask yourself- if a Rogue Trader told them he'd be willing to ensure they and their descendents had a position of power and wealth in the new regime if they co-operated in the takeover of the planet... Would you trust them not to sell out you and the rest of the population to live in the sort of hell the average Imperial citizen endures?

 

The Imperium of Man has ten thousand years of experience in taking control of human-occupied planets, and outright war is only one of the tools in it's inventory, even if it is the favourite and most often used one.

 

(And the forums went into some sort of maintenance state as I was in the process of typing this out- it's like someone doesn't want me to post this here...)


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#43 Amroth

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:37 AM

I noticed the points on technology interesting too, especially regarding our ignorance.

 

I would think the biggest difference would be that most of us are not the equivalent of the AdMech but probably have more of an understanding of how it works or are at least aware it is not the machine spirits that are guiding it. And while most of us are quite ignorant of how the technology around us works we are aware of that ignorance and also unlike the average Imperial citizen if we do wish to learn more there are usually many opportunities to do so and no nasty techpriests around to execute us for doing so.

 

Which makes you wonder in the scenario above, if those nukes do bring down that Rogue Trader, maybe a rogue trader who has also been collecting archeotec and/or xenos tech then suddenly that technology is available to a world that is not adverse to study it in an effort to understand and replicate it. And they would have every motivation to do so as well knowing there is a technologically advanced but otherwise ignorant and barbaric culture out there somewhere that threatens its very existence.

 

Suddenly you've got all sorts of military and warp travel technology being developed and improved upon as well as possible cloning to mass produce troops for self-defence. Suddenly you've got a powerful and ever growing empire (its nations unified by the fear of what's out there) getting ever stronger unkown outside imperial space. Led by science and knowledge instead of blind supersition and fear its development and growth would be far more rapid than the crumbling Imperium...... it's fightback time baby!



#44 Wincent

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:55 AM

Earth f... yeah! But seriously no, just no.

If RT (or Imperium for that matter) really wants Earth flat it'll be flat in no time.

The best scenario for us will be to have a deal with RT: atomics for protection (and some warrant forgery as a back-up plan - nothing's better than our very own RT).



#45 Tantavalist

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:15 AM

"It's Fightback Time, Baby!" is an idea that relies on Earth somehow taking out a Rogue Trader's starship and then being left alone for the centuries (not years, not decades, centuries) that it'd take to get from where we are now to building warp-capable starships that could stand up to an Imperial warship in combat. Even if that did happen, the initial battles of such a war would involve experienced Imperial commanders in tried-and-tested designs, facing untested warships in a field of warfare that their officers have only ever run simulations on. And if things don't go Earth's way, then there won't be time to build ships to try again.

 

And that's if Earth got left alone after an Independence Day plothammered victory, instead of celebrating over the wreck of the Imperial starship only to have another one emerge from the warp looking to see what happened to it shortly after.

 

Go and construct a "What If" historical scenario where the Aztecs defeated Cortez, then learned metalworking from their captives and went on to build a civilisation to rival Europe. That's the scale of the technological gap you're casually speaking of overcoming.

 

Besides, the whole scenario does hinge on the "if the nukes do bring down the Rogue Trader" supposition, which I've argued against already in my previous post.

 

Finally- all the ideas about modern Earth's innate cultural and intellectual superiority all rely on the idea that the shocks alien contact inflicts on the Stock Market doesn't send the global economy into another Great Depression. How will all the reverse-engineering happen when, despite the people and facilities still physically existing, the magic numbers on the computers are all wrong? Have the government declare it's seizing these things for the common good and put people to work without money? That's Communism in it's purest form, and no way in hell is that going to be considered by any modern Western leader.

 

The whole "Earth founds a new Empire" concept also supposes that modern society will survive long enough to do so. We see their stagnation as a flaw- but it's actually a contributing factor to it's long-term stability. Something that resembles our own culture isn't going to be around 1one thousand years from now, let alone ten thousand.



#46 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:53 AM

How would each 1st world country react?

Would everyone unite behind UN and have it conduct the negotiations at first?

How would UN react to the news of the God Emperor and Imperium existence?

 

Would Russia, China, and other more "independent" countries (or even the EU) try to strike side/covert deals?


I for instance think that China would be a much easier business partner than the US for example - while the US would talk about being a sovereign country under God (and not any emperor), I think China would just say "You have my full cooperation in exchange for tech & arms for me to unify this planet fer you." which would be nice for a RT to hear, considering that single earth-faction hold about 1/6 of the world population at least just by itself.

Sorry if I am going too hard on the stereotypes, but I am really curious about what you have to say.


RT Wannabe Shipwright & Frustrated GM


#47 Quietus1

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:45 AM

I don't think it would be so much a "for hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee" nuclear holocaust, what I think would happen is that at least SOME of the nuclear armed nations are going to not stand for this. At least one or two will be tricky about it, and wait until some rep from the rogue trader lands somewhere (preferably not their backyard). Then nation X nukes the landing site. Nation Y, which just got nuked, nukes nation X. And so on. Or, assuming we didn't cave to orbital bombardment, and the RT wants the planet intact (or just  doesn't have exterminatis weapons), and does a ground campaign, nukes will undoubtedly be popped like corn once our less advanced weapons, armor, etc fail to fend them off.



#48 Amroth

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:00 PM

You are correct that the "fightback baby" does rely on the being left alone for centuries. The assumption that I made with that one was that the Rogue Trader was in unexplored space with whereabouts unknown giving Earth (Sorry the Earthlike planet) time to develop. There is a great chance it may not ever be discovered again.

 

You'll find fear and the need to survive are also a great catalyst for change. You are right are culture won't exist in 1000 years from now, in fact it will be radically different about the time of the conflict with that great big spaceship that tried to annhilate us. Yes governments will take power in terms of long term survival and though there will be conflict most counties will join forces (possibly under a more powerful UN flag) in order to build up their defensive capabilities. It may become what you term as communism, if it means a chance at survival people will grasp it or at least be forced into it. The stock market becomes meaningless in comparison to doing what it takes to survive. Rights and ideas of luxeries are usually the first things to disappear in a warzone.

 

Then lets look at the Imperium if somewhere long down the line they do rediscover this Earthlike planet. Sure they are vastly numerically superior and more experienced (whether or not they are more technologically advanced depends on how much time has elapsed) but will they even be able to send a fleet? Even now they overstretched and struggle to send the supplies needed to current warzones (which is kind of why rogue traders exist to conquer and defend territories in their name). The longer the time delay the harder it will be as the Imperium is constantly struggling to hold off the advances of its numerous enemies (Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, Tau, Separatists to name but the most common of enemies).

 

The Imperium may be in no position to do anything about the growing power out there somewhere or may simply decide not too being ignorant of its growth and true danger to the Imperial creed believing it is simply another primitive human culture somewhere out there that may be ripe for exploiting should we ever find ourselves in that area of the universe again.

 

Also there is great potential for alliances, The Earthlike Planet sending out small stealth missions may come in contact with potential allies for mutual support and protection. Certainly other separatist regimes throughout the Imperial which are growing more and more would be valuable allies and not being as xenophobic as the Imperium there might even be alliances brokered with Tau, Eldar and more exotic alien species should we come in contact. And we would have no qualms about accepting tutorage in usage and construction of their advanced weaponry.

 

In our niavete of the galaxy we may even come into contact with Chaos and strike a bargain unaware of the dangers. If the Imperium does return they may find the beautiful blue planet has been transformed into a horrifying daemon planet worthy only of exterminatus if they have the means.....

 

Of course you are right this does rely on us being able to bring down the Rogue Trader ship but we are a crafty lot and as subsequent posts have shown there is more than one way to skin a cat. It is but one scenario depending on how things turn out but it is one of numerous possibilities which is what makes this thread so interesting.

 

Of course there may be powerful and intelligent individuals among us that simply help the Rogue Trader to rise to power in their own right. Of course I will help you be the rightful ruler all I need is some of that advanced technology you have and a suitably appropriate title and palace to rule the planet from in your absence while you continue your glorious path of conquest for that God-Emperor person you mentioned who of course I worship wholly.....

 

The options for the what might happen are truly limitless..........



#49 WilliamAsher

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:15 PM

I actually brought this idea up with my group.  I have no desire to allow my players access to such a prize, but we do a lot of 'what if' scenarios when we are goofing off.  The big question centered around how hidden the system was and what it did with psykers.  If the system was hidden enough, and psykers were being dealt with, then they decided on a plan to slowly build up the planet via trade.  Trading some basic tech and orbital lift for atomics and some researchers.  Their plan was to build up 'Earth 457' (Joke based on the idea that there have probably been a lot of found 'Earths') until it was a viable colony world.  They would then use that time to increase their own knowledge through studying 'Earth' tech and develop the rest of the solar system.  My group is big into social skills and societal engineering, so it would be right up their alley.

 

As far as conquering the planet, they felt that a show of force using weapons with a 240,000km range to hit the 'Earth' from lunar orbit would discourage armed conflict (Staravar Laser Battery).  They would even be willing to trade some of their advanced personal laser weapons (lasguns) to those countries that acted in good faith as trade partners.  A minor base (housing void shields and 5 regiments of troops backed up by squadrons of fighters and bombers) in Africa with an Auto-temple would be likely until they could tow a system trade ship into the system, but only if they felt it would be secure.  Such a base would of course have plasma generators rigged to blow if needed.

 

If 'Earth 457' was psyker infested, then they would be more likely to take a hard stance.  Of course, overpowering all the communications with vids of psykers gone bad and 'mild' instructional videos about fighting Orks and Tyrannids might help push the point home.  If the world was too far gone, then they would probably use their contacts in the Inquisition to notify them of the problem and offer to carry the 'purging' army onsite and provide support.  Naturally, they would handle cleanup after the native heretics were cleansed...



#50 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 05:01 AM

Here I strongly agree. Many people don't even know how to send an email if they don't do it step-by-step beginning by opening web browser. Almost like it is a 'send an email ritual' which cannot be interrupted in any place or it has to be repeated from scratch. Any likeness to AdMech?

 

This. The average human (bear in mind that by sheer force of numbers, the 'average human' in the Imperium is a Hive worlder) is perfectly competent with using a public vox or desktop cogitator, which, if several hundred years old and from only one specific manufacturer*. They haven't the vaguest how it works but they know what keys to hit, and they've been taught a quick ritual to say under their breath if forced to turn it off and on again**.

 

Ultimately, if a rogue trader turned up with the ability to sell 'modern' 40k technology in return for valuable goods, he could have what the hell he liked. Gold, uranium, food, you name it. Modern technology is actually potentially useful - not to the Imperium but because it's better than other butt-end-of-nowhere planets, he can get a ridiculous rate of exchange for Imperial tech, and 20,000 soldiers with Earth's technology are to all intents and purposes just as capable of oppressing spear-wielding primitives as 20,000 imperial guardsmen.

 

For example; go to a couple of defence ministries and say "these are lascannons. Incredibly reliable antitank weapons able to be recharged indefinitely from a standard solar charger and with the power to defeat the frontal armour of the heaviest tanks you are capable of building. This essentially makes obsolete, at a stroke, your enemy's front-line armoured units. I will sell you these weapons, in return for tanks, with spares components and gun ammunition."

 

Having turned a small supply of 'modern' 40k weapons into a military force supported by an entire industrialised world, he can then go invade all the local feral and medieval worlds....giving him all the raw materials he needs to buy shiny Mechanicus tech, which he can then supply to 'Earth'.

 

"These cogitators are massively more sophisticated than anything you have. To the point that all that lovely encryption you think is protecting your banking and military transmissions...err...yeah. Sorry. I can read all of it. If you like, I can arrange for a Mechanicus delegation to work with your security people, but they won't sell you this stuff, only lease it. They insist on retaining direct control. You can refuse, but then every country who does sign up will be able to plunder your electronic banking system and military comms network at will."

 

...And so on.

 

 

* Admech Inside. Dum dum dah dum.

** Though probably more like 'Aid Me Omnissiah' rather than 'Bloody Microsoft'.
 



#51 CaptainStabby

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 01:07 PM

And then someone links the AdMech to 4chan and the war is on. 






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