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Specialist Classes MK2


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#21 Xamusel

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

Interesting works of classes so far… I think I might like them!

Questions abound (two of them):

1) Did you make the classes listed?

2) Did you notice that I sent you a message recently? /completely unrelated to the rest of the topic….



#22 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

 I'm only replying to the first question (the second was already answered…in another time, in another space…). Yes, I did all of them plus a few based on home made elans…the reasons they're not posted is elsewhere in this forum.



#23 Xamusel

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 04:19 PM

Okay, wanted to make sure.

Seriously, I'll say this again and again if I have to:  You ROCK!!

Seriously, though, it's alright for other users to use these classes, right?  I'm asking mainly because of circumstances, among other things.



#24 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:15 PM

The more playtest, the better! Everyone who's interested in the stuff I post should feel free to use ALL AND ANY of it! I post it so I can share it, and feedback is always welcome, because it lets me improve my game experience as well!



#25 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:40 PM

Elric of Melniboné said:

I think you're not considering rightly the maluses of the Sword Dancer. A high cost for Wear Armor is relevant, since NOTHING in the system requires an Acrobatic Warrior to go around in light armor, as far as his Wear Armor value is sufficiently high as to allow him to wear heavy armor without penalties, and a jumping/running ARMORED fighter is always better than a jumping/running NAKED one. Besides, the huge limits on shields are there for two very important reasons: first a character could choose to dual wield AND wear two bucklers, second a character could choose to dual wield WITH two shields or two full shields! Now, a character fighting with two full shields +15 (very doable with an expense of just 4CP or 3CP plus tons of luck when rolling for social position using Gaia tables and depending on origins) and a Shield Dodge Module would benefit from a total +90Bonus to defense…at LEVEL1! There are tons of very "munchkin" builds out there, and the shield limitation is there for that. As absurd as it might seem, you might make an acrobatic warrior dual wielding shields and wearing heavy armor, who would definitely benefit from a much higher initiative than a warrior with the same combo!

 

1: Dual wielding shields equals munchkinism^3 and should be banned from this game anyway.

2: Considering the bonuses of the Acrobatic Warrior, he might be better of with light armor, Ars Magnus, Impossible Weapons and ki stuff. But yeah, more armor is better than less in general.

I like the new Sword Dancer build, it feels a lot more balanced.



#26 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:05 AM

Thanks for your feedback, Heart of The Tiger! It was extremely helpful so far! As you may easily understand I HAVEN'T playtested 100 classes, and the same goes for many other creations made by me, so a different point of view comes in very handy, in order to better balance my additions to Anima!

Dual wielding shields is very powerful, but I don't feel like denying it, for there is no real reason why a character shouldn't go around bashing with a couple of shields or full shields (provided enough strength). Besides, dual wielding shields most of the time causes severe Initiative drawbacks along with low damage output, so it works really well only for pure-tank characters, who should invest on Secondary Weapon Defensive Style Module and Guardian Magnus (hence 50Notice) in order to really be "efficient".



#27 Xamusel

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

Ah, right, playtesting works in any case.

However, what I meant was for story usage, but I've also gotten a group in the works for playing.

Meh, oh well, either way.



#28 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:17 AM

So, Iet's talk about the Determinist. I like this idea very much, the class feels like a pure ki mage. The one BIG concern I've got with that variant class is, that it can exploit some of the rules like no other class does. I'm talking about the classes ability to apply the "Technique Pushing" ki ability to maintained or sustained techniques. If you apply that ability to a technique that allows you to raise a ki shield which relies on a constant Zen ability (440) for defense, the automatic defense is increased to 660(!). Normally thtat would be possible, but only for 1 round, after that, the effect would go back to 440. With your ruling, one could maintain it that high for as long as he has ki points. This is game breaking. I know, you need many many ki points to do that, but with this class variant and a 1 CP advantage you can have 360 ki points without ever investing one DP into ki points.

I suggest reducing the effect of that aspect of the Determinist's ability somewhat. Perhaps you should exclude predetermined attack/defense from the allowed maintain/ sustainabe effects.



#29 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:45 AM

 You've made an interesting point there. I knew from the very beginning when designing this class, that the rule about making forced techniques "maintained" would be his "big-up". Now, as you can easily see, the Determinist isn't definitely going to spend on Attack/Defense, and is DEFINITELY going to fight using Predetermined-Effect Techniques. Hence, eliminating them from the rule isn't a feasible option.

I must say that the Determinist, although looking almost allmighty with his predetermined set of techniques, has the big flaw of being a "supernatural" specialist. Bring him to a place where supernatural powers don't work (anywhere near the Inner Sea or places specifically designed to suppress supernatural powers), and he's definitely done for. Also, when facing a Nemesis specialist (even without using my nemesician class), the Determinist might just take 1 turn too much to raise his/her defences. All in all, the Determinist is very powerful, but at the same time extremely frail at the inside (tsundere?).

Now…forcing a sustained technique sincerely is most times not doable simply because of AMAZING ki cost. Of course the Determinist can afford the cost of a 660Predetermined Shield or Additional Defenses technique, but how many turns are required for that character to pull off such feat?! I don't think even a very HIGH level Determinist might pull off such technique in a single turn, even spending 5 fatigue points to increase his accumulations. I don't think he/she would be able to do so even with a Maintained technique. And the predetermined defense is possibly THE ONLY DEFENSE this character has, so probably the Determinist isn't going anyway to force his defensive technique, for the sole reason that it would cost too much precious time (in addition to a fair amount of ki). Anyway, avoiding "auto-win" situations is always important, hence let's make it like this. When forcing a Maintained or Sustained technique, the effect of Forcing the technique does not vanish abruptly after the first turn, but "fades" at a rate of 10% per turn. Hence a Maintained Forced Technique will have its effects increased by 50% during the turn it's used, then 40% the first time it's maintained (2nd turn of use), then 30% the following turn, and so on. On the sixth turn, the "forced" effect will be completely vanished.

For a 440 Predetermined technique, it goes like this:

1st turn: 660

2nd turn: 616

3rd turn: 572

4th turn: 528

5th turn: 484

And then again, I say we're talking about a technique that in order to be forced probably required no less than 4-6 turns of accumulation.

Any thought about this solution?



#30 F3nr1s

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

 To Technique Pushing: Like I understood the ruling is: If I push a maintained (okay, there is nothing about sustained, but I think it works similar) technique at the beginning, it is pushed as long as I maintain it. I can't push an already active and maintained technique. I don't see there a point which states, that the "pushing effect" stops after one round. Perhaps some error in my reading, but I'm not sure.

So long,



#31 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:43 AM

F3nr1s said:

 To Technique Pushing: Like I understood the ruling is: If I push a maintained (okay, there is nothing about sustained, but I think it works similar) technique at the beginning, it is pushed as long as I maintain it. I can't push an already active and maintained technique. I don't see there a point which states, that the "pushing effect" stops after one round. Perhaps some error in my reading, but I'm not sure.

So long,

It works like this: If you apply technique pushing to a technique that can be maintained/sustained, the effect of technique pushing only exists for the first round, after that the technique has its normal effect. At least that's how read it (english version of Dominus Exxet). The wording is a bit unclear, that's for sure.

As for the diminishing effect… honestly I don't know. On the one hand it's a mathematical solution to the problem, on the other hand it's complicated and clunky to some degree and that's the very last thing this game needs. I have to think about this, maybe I'll come up with something.

 

 



#32 F3nr1s

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:47 AM

 I have also havethe english version, and like I said: I don't read it, that the pushing only works in the first round, I read, that I can push the technique only at the activition, and not later. (So I can't push a technique, which I have already maintained for 3 rounds).

But, you are right, the wording is really unclear.

 

Also to the dimishing effect: I would also say, that this wouldn't make fun, because I must remember, how much turns I have maintained the technique (and I know my players, they love to forget this) and it involves more math for this (okay, most of my players have a calculator with them, when we play).

 

So long,



#33 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 06:49 PM

I believe the math isn't really a problem here, for the reason that players using a determinist have just to learn a very few numbers in order to apply th diminishing effect even without a calculator. A Determinist usually has a set of techniques. If you're going to take Technique Pushing, all you need is calculate in advance the "values" of the technique when pushed on turn 1-5, you write it down somewhere (back of the sheet?), then you check it when needed. Once again, I don't think a Determinist will push techniques most of the time, due to time issues, but will only do that when really needed, and a piece of paper with already calculated effects will work much better than a calculator in such case, since reading is much faster. It's much like a wizard holding by himself a list of his spells with the effects listed at the various casting levels, after all.



#34 Sami K

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:00 PM

Nice work. I have to ask though, what is an "intelligence" as it refers to a specialization?

Do you mean like an intelligence operative, ie. agent?



#35 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 06:59 PM

 Yep. Intellicence Agent, actually. An army man/woman who received both formal training in fighting but was left developing a wide array of knowledges, so he/she could offer logistic support in the most diversified situations.



#36 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 10:50 PM

I didn't have much time lately, sorry. I have some questions for you, along with some concerns about some of your Specialist Classes.

I'm a level 7 Acrobatic Warrior. At level 8 I decide that I want to become a Sword Dancer. How does that work exactly? Do I just add the Sword Dancer's bonus at level 8 instead of the normal bonuses I would get, making me an Acrobatic "Warrior 7/Sword Dancer 1" or do I recalculate all the bonuses from 1 to 7, making me a "Sword Dancer 8"?
If it's the first, I must say there is the cance of enormous abuse with some of the Specialist Classes, especially those, who get cheaper multipliers or trade innate attack or defense for other bonuses.

Special bonuses to attack/defense: I still have my problems with those. My greatest concern is the stacking of the bonuses at high levels. As you know, the average open roll in Anima is ~56. This means, that if the special bonus that some of your classes get, exceeds half that amount, it already is a very huge bonus. That's why I said +25 would be more than enough. That and the fact that this bonus is half the maximum innate class bonus to attack/defense.

True Blade: I still think this class deserves an additional bonus. Doesn't have to be huge. How about something small involvig initiative or something that affects the True Blade's ability to use block instead of dodge? Also, you may consider to take away the True Blade's Sleight of Hand bonus insted of it's Athleticism bonus, I think that would be more fitting. Or you could even give players the choice here.

Magnus Fighter: Do I read that right? This class gets +5 attack, +5 block as innate and +5 attack and block for every 30 or 40DP (you have a typo in the description) it spends on Ars Magnus and Impossible Weapons, AND halves the costs for using those? That's huge. Really huge. Yeah, no Ki Techniques, no Nemesis, but still…

Kensai: I have an awkward feeling reading this. Can't say more at this point.

Ninja/Stalker: Some bonus involving Umbra would be nice.

Acrobatic Warlock: Yeah, giving a mixed Fighter/Mystic class +10 initiative/ level. As if stacking initiative wasn't already overpowered enough. I woudn't have done this.

Bard: I like.

Assassin Mentalist: Ok, this is the same concern as with the Acrobatic Warlock, only on a much greater scale. I probably don't have to tell you, that Warrior Mentalists are alreay on my §$%& list for being able to stack unbelievably huge bonuses like no other class can. Instead. Of. Buying. Secondary. Abilities. For an unlimted amount of time. For almost no cost. +320 acrobatics, +8/4 on all physical stats, +200 initiative, +16 regeneration, Fatigue Elimination (can't be maintained, but spammed every round, I'm looking at you, „Use of Necessary Energy“)… Ok, I'm stopping already, I just don't like such potentially broken classes like the Warrior Mentalist.



#37 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:34 PM

I forgot something. At least one of your classes mentiones bonuses it would get at level 18. If you plan to play at levels that high, you should consider a change in the scaling of innate bonuses to attack and defense, or magic and psychic projection will begin to scale higher than attack and defense after level 15. 



#38 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:42 AM

 I let characters spend higher than 50% on Attack/Defense. Easy and fast. Works really good too, since characters with higher Att/Def still HAVE the big flaw of lack of flexibility. Besides at such high levels characters would almost never spend the full 60% on ATT/DEF, since they want to get magnus/martial arts/modules and things that just make their character do something else than basic hack'n'slash. Never had problems of balance with this ruling so far. Of course multi-class characters still hold little lower projection/att/def. But then again, multiclass are supposed to gain in flexibility what they lack in raw power.



#39 Heart of the Tiger

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:46 AM

Heart of the Tiger said:

I'm a level 7 Acrobatic Warrior. At level 8 I decide that I want to become a Sword Dancer. How does that work exactly? Do I just add the Sword Dancer's bonus at level 8 instead of the normal bonuses I would get, making me an Acrobatic "Warrior 7/Sword Dancer 1" or do I recalculate all the bonuses from 1 to 7, making me a "Sword Dancer 8"?
If it's the first, I must say there is the cance of enormous abuse with some of the Specialist Classes, especially those, who get cheaper multipliers or trade innate attack or defense for other bonuses.

 



#40 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:23 AM

I work the specialization change as retroactive (hence a level 7 acrobatic would become a level 8 sword dancer under all aspects). STILL, it would be just as much sensate making a character consider the new class only beginning with the level you're switching in…Choose the ruling that better fits your games, after all these are home rules anyway.






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