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Is 20$ worth it for just a beta?


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#41 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:40 PM

signoftheserpent said:

Charing people to playtest your game is beyond inexcusable.


Not really.

Catalyst Game Labs put out a beta of the BattleTech RPG for a reduced price so people could use it and 'break the system', collated the feedback via their forums, and then put that into the final product. Anyone who had bought that PDF then got the full version for a heavily reduced price when it finally came out. It was a very successful test with a high take-up rate.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#42 signoftheserpent

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:19 PM

H.B.M.C. said:

signoftheserpent said:

Charing people to playtest your game is beyond inexcusable.



Not really.

Catalyst Game Labs put out a beta of the BattleTech RPG for a reduced price so people could use it and 'break the system', collated the feedback via their forums, and then put that into the final product. Anyone who had bought that PDF then got the full version for a heavily reduced price when it finally came out. It was a very successful test with a high take-up rate.

BYE

 

People will playtest a game happily for free. I bet everyone on these forums would offer their services because it's its own reward. This feels like FFG taking advantage of that fact and I am very uncomfortable with this.

What other companies do is not really an argument, and again the only people tha tbenefit are the pdf buyers. Correction: the pdf buyers aren't out of pocket if they take this sort of scheme up. Bricks and mortars stores and their customers - the people buying the book (which is the final goal of this project and how it has been budgeted and organised) - are the ones that lose out, if they show their loyalty to FFG by taking this up.

And the people most likely to take this up are also most likely to buy the book.

Does it also follow that enthusiasm alone, plus a bit of spare cash, is enough of a qualification to playtest and proof read a game? A game that, it would appear, has already been playtested and proofread anyway.

There isn't a positive outcome for this at all.



#43 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:32 PM

PDF products have been around for a while now. Jumping on the 'B&M stores will suffer' bandwagon now stinks of fish. A red fish perhaps. A kind or herring, even.

Fact of the matter serpent is that you don't have to be involved in this. You can quite happily walk away and not think anything more of Only War until the physical copy hits shelves (whenever that turns out to be… probably after Gen-Con now… that's a shame ). Those who want to get involved will, and those who won't, won't! It's not that difficult. I don't like the $20 price tag and was taken aback when I saw it (as I didn't see any price break on the PDF when I first went to the link). As someone else mentioned in this thread, $10 probably would've been better, but the past is the past. It's done now. Going over it constantly doesn't help anything and I think our time is better served trying to even out the wrinkles in the game.

I'm sure, serpent, that the first thing you type in reply to me will be "You're missing the point!" or words to that effect, but I don't care. You've proven time and time again to be the single most self-entitled person at this board with a raging angry demeanour and you have not been able to demonstrate the ability of finding the good in anything. Everything I've seen you post is either a personal attack against the FFG, the writers, the freelancers, the play-testers or even just other members. You add nothing to this discussion and will continue to add nothing to this discussion for as long as you continue to post about the beta without actually taking part in the beta.

So the choice is yours - and once I'm done I will say nothing further on the matter - participate in the better and work with others towards a better game (a game you just would've complained about had it come out without a beta, and a game you probably still will complain about now anyway), or don't participate and leave this sub-forum, because your continued presence adds nothing, contributes nothing, and results in nothing. You said on the first page that they'd 'lost a customer'. If this is true, why are you still here?

And I'm done. No further conversation will be entered into unless it is constructive beta-related discussion, not self-entitled "I want it all and I want it all right away!" nonsense. I'd urge Nathan to do the same thing.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#44 bladerunner_35

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:57 AM

Wow, I am amazed at the vitriol in this thread.

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

Now that we know that you'll actually get your money back I think it's a huge step forward for FFG. After every major 40K rpg release it has been sad to read about the many glaring and obvious errors that the community found after just a quick skimming of the rules. Now here's the chance to change that. There has also been many voices calling out how non-communicative that FFG is and this beta is rectifying that as well.

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

I am confident that in the end the quality of the finished product, wether that is a hard- or digital copy, will be greatly increased.

I really do not see the error here (except for the fact that it was sloppy to leave out the "discount" paragraph in the beginning).

 

Edit: oh and to actually answer the question: Yes, it is absolutely worth it. I did the very same thing with a swedish game just now published (Svavelvinter). It was cool. The only reason I am not sure I'll get into the beta is because I am starting up a campaign with that game and probably won't have time to do any actual testing.


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#45 signoftheserpent

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 01:09 AM

bladerunner_35 said:

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?



#46 bladerunner_35

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 01:53 AM

signoftheserpent said:

bladerunner_35 said:

 

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

 

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?

 

I am sorry but I do not understand what you mean (and I mean this in all honesty)?

What "project" do you mean? This beta test is clearly meant to find rules error and confusions.

While those that do not want to buy the beta pdf indeed cannot participate in the beta test you do not lose out. At least that is what I feel, you will get a better product in the end. I do not think it is strange that FFG do not provide a physical beta version. It would clearly not be cost effective and we would get the exact same argument that we have now.

If you do not choose to participate in the beta ie buy the beta pdf you are not "paying the most for the project". What is it that you feel you are paying? Is it the lost opportunity that frustrate you?

You will still support the core retail chains if you buy the physical book from the core retail chain.

The game is not delayed. FFG never said they would release it on GenCon.

Personally I feel everyone benefits from this (although I feel I have to admit I am a pdf kind of guy).

I hope you do not take this as me being obtuse on purpouse. I just do not see your points.


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#47 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:07 AM

People assumed (myself included) that it would come out around or after Gen-Con, just like the other books. Of course, that was an assumption, not a fact.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#48 signoftheserpent

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:33 AM

bladerunner_35 said:

signoftheserpent said:

 

bladerunner_35 said:

 

I can understand the frustration of the people who do not want a pdf and feel left out but the general feeling of entitlement is a little….overwhelming.

 

It isn't a question of simple choice. For many of us PDF's aren't practical. I'd love to own a laptop or a tablet, it would make carrying all the material to the gaming table a hell of a lot easier than lugging a ton weight of books and risking a hernia!

But more than that, the product itself is intended and designed and costed and budgeted as a print book. The pdf is a happy by product, something that can be created because of the process. It isn't the goal, it's just another revenue stream. And that's fine. I have no problem with the existence of pdf materials and I fully endorse people using them. But that isn't what this project was about. So the people that are going to buy the book, including those of us who can only consume the product in this form, lose out on this deal - yet we're the ones paying the most for the project and we're the ones supporting the core retail chain. Was that not considered as part of this?

 

 

 

I am sorry but I do not understand what you mean (and I mean this in all honesty)?

What "project" do you mean? This beta test is clearly meant to find rules error and confusions.

While those that do not want to buy the beta pdf indeed cannot participate in the beta test you do not lose out. At least that is what I feel, you will get a better product in the end. I do not think it is strange that FFG do not provide a physical beta version. It would clearly not be cost effective and we would get the exact same argument that we have now.

If you do not choose to participate in the beta ie buy the beta pdf you are not "paying the most for the project". What is it that you feel you are paying? Is it the lost opportunity that frustrate you?

You will still support the core retail chains if you buy the physical book from the core retail chain.

The game is not delayed. FFG never said they would release it on GenCon.

Personally I feel everyone benefits from this (although I feel I have to admit I am a pdf kind of guy).

I hope you do not take this as me being obtuse on purpouse. I just do not see your points.

What i mean by project is Only War - the game! The project to write the rpg.

What I am saying is that if I choose to pay for the beta, unless I buy the pdf through the related discoiunt, I lose out because I'm also paying for the book - and the cost of the book includes the cost of playtesting (just as it does with the costs of printing, publishing and writing, etc)



#49 Durandal7

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 03:39 AM

I was sketchy about paying for a beta until, unsurprisingly, my fears were alleviated by being informed of a discount on the final product.

I can help the project, which is cool and get an early look at it, which is also cool :)

I also lose nothing in doing so (as far as I can tell), so I'm quite pleased now having got the Beta and spotted a few mistakes :P


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#50 bladerunner_35

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 03:55 AM

signoftheserpent said:

What I am saying is that if I choose to pay for the beta, unless I buy the pdf through the related discoiunt, I lose out because I'm also paying for the book - and the cost of the book includes the cost of playtesting (just as it does with the costs of printing, publishing and writing, etc)

 

I see, and indeed you do. You either lose out on the beta or pay for the privilige. I understand now, I do not necessarily agree that it's a big deal but again I do not mind using pdf:s so I am biased.

Thanks for the clarification btw!


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#51 CodenameXXIII

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:01 AM

 Maybe the best solution should to give a discount not only on the pdf version, also on the printed version. Maybe not 20$ of course, but i am sure that a lot of people would buy the beta if they get a 10 or 15 $ on the printed version.



#52 signoftheserpent

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:11 AM

CodenameXXIII said:

 Maybe the best solution should to give a discount not only on the pdf version, also on the printed version. Maybe not 20$ of course, but i am sure that a lot of people would buy the beta if they get a 10 or 15 $ on the printed version.

But then surely the best solution is just the easiest: don't charge at all. In the end it's the same result.

Anyway it would be impossible for them to administer a discount on the book unless they sold it directly which won't happen, not least of all becauise it will upset the retail market.



#53 Blood Pact

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:17 AM

[ADMIN: Edited for content. Feel free to voice your opinions without the personal attacks.]

FFG isn't performing shady business practices again, or trying to "gouge" the fanbase. The people who will buy the Beta are the people who were going to buy the finished .pdf anyway. 

[ADMIN: More content removed.]

so what are you supposed to do with the Beta (not buy it, maybe?). Noone is forcing you, or anyone else, but you'd think they were. And adults apparently take responsibility for how they spend their money.

[ADMIN: More content removed.]

And your complaints about .pdf's in general are something that should be directed at the entire gaming industry, not just FFG, by a long shot.

And yeah, buying the Beta doesn't obligate FFG to listen to any of the tips and corrections that people send them. Good. I hope they'll listen when they idea is good, or the correction valid. But it's been previously established that these forums aren't exactly the place for constructive criticism (wild accusations and rude overreactions, sure). Like all those times that people say FFG should adopt WW's publishing style (when I know for a fact that few forum posters have any experience at all with WW products). I couldn't imagine the mess of a game we'd have, if they had to listen to everything someone on the forums said.

Now getting back to Pathfinder for a second. Their books should be only about $10 to have in print. Pathfinder still uses 3.5e (still better than 4e, but we're moving on to 5e now). It's not cheap out of the kindness of their heart, but simple business practices. Same reason you wouldn't see someone trying to sell 2nd edition material for full price, even if they went and made a bunch of new expansions and adventures for it. And as for the PRD, that's kinda expected since Open Game License pretty much requires them to slap the hard mechanics up somewhere for people to read for free. Wizards did it with D&D too, I probably still have the 3.x System Reference Document that I downloaded years ago sitting on a harddrive somewhere. It's pretty much something that applied to all of 3.0/3.5, some business strategy to try and get more third party publishers in on the game, more easily. Go read the OGL right quick, you'll see right where it says they have to make the mechanics available for free. I'm not saying it's not nice. I'm saying don't be quick to hand out credit, getting this stuff for free is something that Wizards' lawyers already decided for Paizo, when they wrote up OGL.

bladerunner_35 said:

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

 

Well my apoligies then to all those I insulted about the paragraphs earlier. Either option was likely, to be frank. But yeah, Drive Thru does have a habit of minor screwups (like not posting complete text and all right away). The 0.99 cent Exalted April Fool's Day product from WW a few years back generated such a riot on the forums, because people were cheated a WHOLE dollar. When it was really just wasn't uploaded to DriveThru properly. Didn't stop people from setting the boards on fire with their unjustified rage though… so you see where I'm coming from a bit better.



#54 Dok Martin

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:24 AM

To those of you who just tuned in:

signoftheserpent = FFG's naysmith. Don't take him too seriously. He will still be on this forum long after everyone else has left.



#55 bladerunner_35

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:45 AM

Blood Pact said:

 

[ADMIN: Edited for content.]
 
FFG isn't performing shady business practices again, or trying to "gouge" the fanbase. The people who will buy the Beta are the people who were going to buy the finished .pdf anyway.
 
[ADMIN: More content removed.]
 
Noone is forcing you, or anyone else, but you'd think they were. And adults apparently take responsibility for how they spend their money.
 
[ADMIN: More content removed.]
 
And your complaints about .pdf's in general are something that should be directed at the entire gaming industry, not just FFG, by a long shot.

And yeah, buying the Beta doesn't obligate FFG to listen to any of the tips and corrections that people send them. Good. I hope they'll listen when they idea is good, or the correction valid. But it's been previously established that these forums aren't exactly the place for constructive criticism (wild accusations and rude overreactions, sure). Like all those times that people say FFG should adopt WW's publishing style (when I know for a fact that few forum posters have any experience at all with WW products). I couldn't imagine the mess of a game we'd have, if they had to listen to everything someone on the forums said.

Now getting back to Pathfinder for a second. Their books should be only about $10 to have in print. Pathfinder still uses 3.5e (still better than 4e, but we're moving on to 5e now). It's not cheap out of the kindness of their heart, but simple business practices. Same reason you wouldn't see someone trying to sell 2nd edition material for full price, even if they went and made a bunch of new expansions and adventures for it. And as for the PRD, that's kinda expected since Open Game License pretty much requires them to slap the hard mechanics up somewhere for people to read for free. Wizards did it with D&D too, I probably still have the 3.x System Reference Document that I downloaded years ago sitting on a harddrive somewhere. It's pretty much something that applied to all of 3.0/3.5, some business strategy to try and get more third party publishers in on the game, more easily. Go read the OGL right quick, you'll see right where it says they have to make the mechanics available for free. I'm not saying it's not nice. I'm saying don't be quick to hand out credit, getting this stuff for free is something that Wizards' lawyers already decided for Paizo, when they wrote up OGL.

bladerunner_35 said:

I too was flabbergasted initially when they had not included the paragraph about the discount on the final product.

 

Well my apoligies then to all those I insulted about the paragraphs earlier. Either option was likely, to be frank. But yeah, Drive Thru does have a habit of minor screwups (like not posting complete text and all right away). The 0.99 cent Exalted April Fool's Day product from WW a few years back generated such a riot on the forums, because people were cheated a WHOLE dollar. When it was really just wasn't uploaded to DriveThru properly. Didn't stop people from setting the boards on fire with their unjustified rage though… so you see where I'm coming from a bit better.

 

 

 

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#56 Cifer

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:08 PM

 Now that the final PDF discount has been included, I think the offer is absolutely fine. Because that's what it is: An offer. Noone's forcing you to buy it if the conditions are unacceptable to you. Just wait for the finished product then as you would have done before.

The weighing of these conditions will vary for different persons, obviously - if you're going to GenCon (if the book came out at GenCon) the deal won't be as good. If you don't like PDFs, it's obviously not for you. If you're living in another part of the world than the USA, it's better. I know I always get the GenCon 40k books somewhen around… mid-January to February at best here. This beta lets me take a (hopefully) small hit in quality and get the game 3/4 of a year before I could get it otherwise even if I never write a single line of feedback to FFG. And maybe we'll be able to finally get a final version that needs neither an errata nor a large bottle of whisky to make the spelling errors go away. If all that's required for that is that some people pay a little sooner for something they'd pay for anyway, that's ok by me.

As for the question "why pay at all and not get it for free", I think N0-1 has hit the nail on the head: This is a nearly finished product. You can play with it. And since it's a physical game instead of one run on a server somewhere, FFG can't take away your access to it once it's given out. Neither is there the possibility of a bug so huge that your GM can't houserule around it. Think about it: Would Blizzard have done an Open Beta of Diablo III where everyone playing the beta could have continued to play the real game (minus the changes) for free? I do not think so.



#57 Avrelivs

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:44 PM

If you're living in another part of the world than the USA, it's better.

 

Speaking from Malaysia, I agree. Not everyone who plays RPGs lives in the States or has enough money to pay for delivery.

 

:

As for the question "why pay at all and not get it for free", I think N0-1 has hit the nail on the head: This is a nearly finished product. You can play with it. Neither is there the possibility of a bug so huge that your GM can't houserule around it. .

 

Again, I agree on all counts. I've never run a DH/RT etc. game using the 'default' setting anyway, so the lack of anything like that in the 'beta' is essentially $20 off for me.



#58 Avrelivs

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 11:45 PM

Damnation, any way to edit a post?



#59 peterstepon

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:46 AM

My personal thoughts is that this is a way for FFG to enter the Wiki age.

Since most information these days is open source sharing, the logical thing to do would be to allow all gamers to input their ideas to a final product.  Due to the ease of sharing of information, it would be more efficient and economical to have a wider range of ideas come together to make a better product.  Most games in the past were based on a relatively small group of play testers, and were then honed in from feedback from the wider world of players.   This is a way to make a more hands on and grassroots effort to have all players throw their feedback in at the beginning so that a nicer product can be made by release date.  Sure erratas will come out, but that is just part of the evolution of the game.  Look at how much the warhammer line has evolved from Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade, and now Only War.  By having more feedback and more testing by the players themselves, as well as anyone committed to making a better game, the end product cannot help but be excellent.

The more of a group effort, the better future products from FFG will be. 



#60 CodenameXXIII

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:26 AM

 But remember that you are asking to people to do a work for free. There are a lot of professionals that work for a fee: Correctors, editors, etc. Now you are asking to people to pay 20$ for a book and after that to send the erratas that the could find on the book.  A lot of people that work and have a contract could be Unemployment because now you have 100 people that will do your work for free (or after have payed 20$)






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