Jump to content



Photo

Is 20$ worth it for just a beta?


  • Please log in to reply
96 replies to this topic

#21 Blood Pact

Blood Pact

    Member

  • Members
  • 890 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

signoftheserpent said:

You won't be getting my support. You've lost a customer.

 

Then will you SHUT UP and leave the damn forums already? I'm sick of hearing nothing but bitching and moaning from you and too many other posters.

It's enough to make me quit the damn games.

Wizards made plenty of money off of D&D 3.5, and they had an OGL and an online SRD. Paizo puts all content up for Pathfinder online for free, and they make plenty of money.

 

 

Of course, those are released products. I don't understand the idea of charging for playtesting and proof-reading.

A) I don't see a lot of free stuff there for Pathfinder, and what little I do see is quite old content. And B) The important bit now, Wizards is owned by Hasbro, who are probably richest toy-company on the planet. They can shovel all the money they want in to Wizards, if it gets shakey. They can take a loss any day of the week on D&D.



#22 Plushy

Plushy

    Member

  • Members
  • 811 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:26 AM

Blood Pact said:

signoftheserpent said:

You won't be getting my support. You've lost a customer.

 

Then will you SHUT UP and leave the damn forums already? I'm sick of hearing nothing but bitching and moaning from you and too many other posters.

It's enough to make me quit the damn games.

 

"4. Treat everyone (users or not) with respect, while enjoying the freedom to disagree with their ideas."

 

Come along, Blood Pact. People are free to dislike business practices. FFG is generally good with feedback; they'll listen and decide for themselves. If you don't want to hear complaints, maybe you should consider leaving the complaint thread?


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#23 ItsUncertainWho

ItsUncertainWho

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,888 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:31 AM

Plushy said:

… I don't understand the idea of charging for playtesting and proof-reading.

So they can get more eyes on the product and get changes made before the print run, thus reducing the amount of whining and moaning that goes on about proof reading and editing on these forums.

Why charge?

My guess, FFG licenses the content from GW. When GW allows their content to be free (never), the beta process might be free. Until then the hard core will buy it, proofread the hell out of it and catch stuff FFG and their people missed. Changes can get made before the print run and all those early adopters get a $20 discount on the final PDF, everyone else gets a better printed book.  It is really a win/win for everyone, despite what some may think.



#24 Blood Pact

Blood Pact

    Member

  • Members
  • 890 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:42 AM

Since when was this was "complaint thread"?

I foolishly assumed that I'd find rational discourse and and conversation when I decided to come here, instead every second post is right back to the same ol' mantra of bull that I see too much.

And why? Because someone knee-jerked way too fast cause they didn't see the thing about the $20 coming off the final product (yeah yeah, it wasn't there… or could it be that the first group complaining cause they didn't read thoroughly enough. Jumping right to outrage instead of reading all three paragraphs on the page? I'm sorry, but I always bet on human stupidity…

And then the further complaints, mostly from Signs, who has produced such gems as complainign about why Dark Eldar are only just getting rules now, as opposed to years ago (…yeah, that linear progression of time is a real *****, ain't it?). And couldn't just accept that they hadn't written them yet, back then.

So ya know what, I feel absolutely justified about my complaints… afterall, this is a complaint thread.



#25 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

 

 

ItsUncertainWho said:

 

signoftheserpent said:

 

You won't be getting my support. You've lost a customer. I don't want the pdf version. What use is it to me? PDF's are awkward enough as it is when they try to emulate weighty full colour print books, but if you don't have a laptop/tablet (and I don't) they are worse than useless. Consequenlty I'm left with only the print version. That's quite enough for me, I was happy enough to buy that, but paying into this beta so I can subsidise people that want pdf products (which are already absurdly priced, as if they were equivalent to the print copies - that's a whole other discussion!)? No thanks. Please rethink this, it's an absolutely awful scheme, and you can be sure - not that i condone this i stress - this will see it's way onto torrents before you wake up tomorrow. You are doing yourself no favours here at all sir.

 

 

If you don't like PDF's, don't buy it. Wait for the print release, just like you would normally, then you can start ranting about it in a couple of months.

 

You have missed the point.

 

I also didn't say that I disliked pdfs. What I don't like are 300 page pdf's that are produced to be an exact copy of the print version. This is not good product design; a pdf has a specific format and functions uniquely. A book is easy to leaf through, a pdf requires systme resources and an optimised layout. It doesn't need huge amounts of artwork that slow it down. Unfortunately that is my experience of pdf's.

Aside from that I prefer print books for reasons already stated. Not only that but I like to support the lifeblood of the hobby by using traditional shops. Without them FFG would soon find life very difficult. Could it survive by digital sales alone?

As I won't benefit from this beta becuase I can't get a rebate on a book, what exactly am I being charged for if I choose to help FFG playtest their product? This is just crazy. Is it fair that I should subisidise your pdf copy? I don't think so. I have no problem with you buying a pdf,  that's entirely your choice and good luck to you. But this is just something that FFG came up with at the eleventh hour, pun intended, when they got wind that we weren't particularly thrilled to have top pay them to playtest their game!



#26 Sinister Brain

Sinister Brain

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:52 AM

 Ahahahahaha…  no.



#27 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:53 AM

Blood Pact said:

Well, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to get stupid as all hell, now did it?

 

Vonpenguin said:

Essentially the topic. I mean when Green Ronin puts out their playtests they do so for free. I'm very interested in this game but not sure I want to pay for a bunch of fluffless crunch that I'll have to re-purchase in a few months anyway.

 

Temudschin said:

I´m not sure about this one too. 20$ for a beta-pdf? At least now we can have a closer look at the contents of Only War. You just have to look at the preview-pdf on drivethru, wich shows us the whole table of conent! :)

 

Alright, so everyone here who is hesitant…

Tell me, what were you planning to do after you bought the REAL, finished edition .pdf, and came to the conclusion you didn't like the game (after spending more than $20)? And if god-emperor forgbid that you actually like it, you get the $20 paid for the beta copy off the .pdf of the full copy… so again, what's there to complain about?

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure GR doesn't beta-test the core-books to entirely new games, for free.

Blood Pact said:

Well, it certainly didn't take long for this thread to get stupid as all hell, now did it?

 

Vonpenguin said:

Essentially the topic. I mean when Green Ronin puts out their playtests they do so for free. I'm very interested in this game but not sure I want to pay for a bunch of fluffless crunch that I'll have to re-purchase in a few months anyway.

 

Temudschin said:

I´m not sure about this one too. 20$ for a beta-pdf? At least now we can have a closer look at the contents of Only War. You just have to look at the preview-pdf on drivethru, wich shows us the whole table of conent! :)

 

Alright, so everyone here who is hesitant…

Tell me, what were you planning to do after you bought the REAL, finished edition .pdf, and came to the conclusion you didn't like the game (after spending more than $20)? And if god-emperor forgbid that you actually like it, you get the $20 paid for the beta copy off the .pdf of the full copy… so again, what's there to complain about?

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure GR doesn't beta-test the core-books to entirely new games, for free.

Everyone here knows the risk of buying these books. That risk is explicit and upfront and is present in every single purchase made inside and out of this hobby. Buy an album, book or dvd and there's a chance you might not like it. Trying to justify this policy on the basis of mitigating that response is depriving me of my responsibility as a consumer. I'm an adult, I can make an informed choice, and take the consequence of my decision. I certainly do not welcome anyone trying to use that as an excuse to gouge the fanbase for the 'privilege' of participating in a beta.

Then will you SHUT UP and leave the damn forums already? I'm sick of hearing nothing but bitching and moaning from you and too many other posters.

It's enough to make me quit the damn games.

You need to grow up and calm down.



#28 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:58 AM

Blood Pact said:

Since when was this was "complaint thread"?

I foolishly assumed that I'd find rational discourse and and conversation when I decided to come here, instead every second post is right back to the same ol' mantra of bull that I see too much.

And why? Because someone knee-jerked way too fast cause they didn't see the thing about the $20 coming off the final product (yeah yeah, it wasn't there… or could it be that the first group complaining cause they didn't read thoroughly enough. Jumping right to outrage instead of reading all three paragraphs on the page? I'm sorry, but I always bet on human stupidity…

And then the further complaints, mostly from Signs, who has produced such gems as complainign about why Dark Eldar are only just getting rules now, as opposed to years ago (…yeah, that linear progression of time is a real *****, ain't it?). And couldn't just accept that they hadn't written them yet, back then.

So ya know what, I feel absolutely justified about my complaints… afterall, this is a complaint thread.

It sounds to me that you wanted an echo chamber. I'm afraid that isn't how this works. Sorry to disappoint.

Furthermore I do not personally care for the absuive tone of people that feel their opportunity to playtest this game threatened by people criticisng FFG's handling of the playest.

Again, this is not an echo chamber and bad decisions deserve the spotlight shone upone them. Noone has been rude to you so, with respect, stop being so thin skinned. If you want to pay for this product then do so, it's already there for you to hand over your cash. But pleasen don't be under any illusion how FFG have handled this.

It's also no guarantee that FFG will accept any feedback, make any changes or listen to what people say in presenting perhaps genuinely worthwhile feedback.

I think it's pretty reprehensible to not only pay for the final book (which is fine) but to pay for a beta so they can then use that money to finish the product. Not even kickstarter would get away with that.



#29 Inquisitor Huntingmoon

Inquisitor Huntingmoon

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:39 AM

It seems like there is a lot of negativity going on when we have a chance to really shape this iteration of the rules.

 

20.00 does seem a bit much for a prototype, and while they may not take our advice or suggestions at the very least we get a chance to look at the new rules and see what is comming.  We also have a chance to try out the new rules and look for holes prior to the print version.  Has anyone looked at the Errata for Deathwatch?  The massive re-write on combat damage rules?  How about the Black Crusade character creation snafu where rules and weapons referanced were missing.  Sure, editing should have shaken that out, but this is a community of players and fans that is slowling dwindling over time.  What if this book helps to bring fresh blood to our hobby?  Isn't it worth our time, if we know we are going to get it anyways, to kick the tires and make some suggestions?  I am proud to say that I purchased the beta copy and I am excited to get a chance to try out the new rules.  I really like the 40K lines so far, I like how informative and interesting the setting is, and I want to see it succeed.  In this world of Kickstarter funding, crowd sourcing, and the general direction of the hobby I think this is a good move on FF's part.



#30 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

Inquisitor Huntingmoon said:

It seems like there is a lot of negativity going on when we have a chance to really shape this iteration of the rules.

 

20.00 does seem a bit much for a prototype, and while they may not take our advice or suggestions at the very least we get a chance to look at the new rules and see what is comming.  We also have a chance to try out the new rules and look for holes prior to the print version.  Has anyone looked at the Errata for Deathwatch?  The massive re-write on combat damage rules?  How about the Black Crusade character creation snafu where rules and weapons referanced were missing.  Sure, editing should have shaken that out, but this is a community of players and fans that is slowling dwindling over time.  What if this book helps to bring fresh blood to our hobby?  Isn't it worth our time, if we know we are going to get it anyways, to kick the tires and make some suggestions?  I am proud to say that I purchased the beta copy and I am excited to get a chance to try out the new rules.  I really like the 40K lines so far, I like how informative and interesting the setting is, and I want to see it succeed.  In this world of Kickstarter funding, crowd sourcing, and the general direction of the hobby I think this is a good move on FF's part.

What does paying 20 bucks do to prove you can properly playtest and proofread a game? Any fool can hand over money. Doesn't mean FFG are going to get the job done properly. This is supposed to be a job. Playtesting isn't meant to be an excuse to get a free copy of the game early. Nothing about this makes the slightest sense.



#31 Peacekeeper_b

Peacekeeper_b

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,485 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:00 AM

Well most playtest material has little to know visual appeal (half a$$ charts and tables, no pictures, standard word documents) and are rarely (in my experience) 250+ pages. Plus it gives me a good head start on what the game will be like before paying $50 for it (since I am planning on multiple copies of the game if I like it, its a good start and worth thte $20).

It also seems to be more to my style than the last 2 40K RPGs, though I dont like the comrades rule so far.



#32 Frankie

Frankie

    Member

  • Members
  • 193 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:13 AM

Blood Pact, you sure are mad.

I think the point that this hurts brick and mortar stores is perfectly valid. Yeah, FFG isn't dumb enough to not realize it won't be torrented. What this does do is have people pay 20$ and get $20 off the main book if they're the demographic who would have bought the online PDF anyway.

Personally, I just use PDFs since I only play online so it doesn't bother me that much.

 



#33 deinol

deinol

    Member

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:16 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

Well most playtest material has little to know visual appeal (half a$$ charts and tables, no pictures, standard word documents) and are rarely (in my experience) 250+ pages. Plus it gives me a good head start on what the game will be like before paying $50 for it (since I am planning on multiple copies of the game if I like it, its a good start and worth thte $20).

It also seems to be more to my style than the last 2 40K RPGs, though I dont like the comrades rule so far.

 

I guess you never saw the free Pathfinder Beta PDF.

And for someone else who said they haven't seen a lot of Free Pathfinder material, the free online PRD has all of the rules from all of the core books (without the art). They also price all their hardcover rulebook PDFs at $9.99. I would hope that FFG would learn a lesson from how Pathfinder grew to be the top selling RPG on the market. Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

If this gave a choice between $20 off the PDF or $20 off the hardcover, I'd consider it. But while I will probably by the book when it is released, I'm not going to buy the PDF. Also, since we've been playtesting the core rules for the 4+ years since Dark Heresy came out, a Beta now seems a bit late.



#34 Bearcat89

Bearcat89

    Member

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:19 AM

Um, Mr. Blood Pact?

The file was posted over at DriveThruRPG WITHOUT the 3 paragraphs that you so smugly think nobody else read.  Those of us that reacted quickly to the announcement only saw the first paragraph.  The second and third paragraphs were added to the page later.  So you can get off of your high horse and stop insulting the other posters in this thread.  The only person appearing unintelligent in this discussion so far is YOU, sir.



#35 HTMC

HTMC

    Member

  • Members
  • 153 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 11:29 AM

 I can't believe the complaints this is generating o_0. If I'm being honest, I think some of you need to take a step-back.

It's an *optional beta*. Emphasis on optional. As someone else pointed out, you can just wait until the final release if you feel paying for use of the beta is not justifiable. As someone else pointed out, this also seems like far more complete of a "beta" than most products that use that label release; you're essentially paying for a complete copy of an RPG core rulebook. 

Will the product be different later? Hopefully yes, because that's the point of the beta. But does that mean that while playtesting this beta, you aren't getting the full experience of playing an RPG, since as been pointed out this is essentially a full release minus some artwork and fluff? Yes, you are. Whether that's worth $20 is *completely up to you*. 

But to throw a fit because they're charging for a chance to play the game is absolutely ridiculous. Perhaps other companies do it differently, but they're different companies with different products. I would never play Pathfinder as a system, so how it does its betas is completely irrelevant. I love the 40k universe, I love how FFG has done its 40kRPGs, so I'm happy to get a chance to try out this new system, especially considering $20 for a full system is far cheaper than the usual $60 price tag core rulebooks come with. 

Sure, if you give feedback you're "working for free." If that bothers you, buy the product, don't give feedback. But I view it as a chance to improve and enhance a product that I'll hopefully be using for years to come, and I'm happy to do that while doing something I'd do in my spare time anyway (play RPGs). So if I can play something I love to play while simultaneously helping out the company that makes it, I'm happy to.

And if you're not, just don't buy it. It's that simple. Complaining angrily on the forum isn't going to accomplish anything. Please take a second to step back and reconsider your perspective.

 



#36 N0-1_H3r3

N0-1_H3r3

    Former Contributing Freelance Writer

  • Members
  • 3,350 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:00 PM

deinol said:

Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

A minor point here - the D&DNext playtest is a very different state of affairs. Those rules are in a very early state of development, and contain an extremely incomplete and unfinished version of the game that's not due for release for at least another year - it's more like an alpha test than a beta test. The Only War Beta is essentially a complete rulebook, lacking a few sections and pieces of artwork - the beta test is for fine-tuning and refinement, rather than full-blown development.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#37 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:12 PM

I think you need to get off your high horse and wind your neck in. Noone has thrown a fit. In fact the only people behaving in such a manner are the insecure fanboys who have overreacted to the inevitable criticism.

This is not how you playtest a game. How are you going to feel when you buy the final product and it's still full of mistakes. FFGs previous games have ahuge list of playtesters as it is, just look at any of the corebooks, and mistakes were rife in the final products of each. Deathwatch has already been mentioned, look at the list of credits for playtesters.



#38 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:30 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

deinol said:

Even Wizards learned enough to put out free playtest documents.

 

A minor point here - the D&DNext playtest is a very different state of affairs. Those rules are in a very early state of development, and contain an extremely incomplete and unfinished version of the game that's not due for release for at least another year - it's more like an alpha test than a beta test. The Only War Beta is essentially a complete rulebook, lacking a few sections and pieces of artwork - the beta test is for fine-tuning and refinement, rather than full-blown development.

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

Now the rules as is might well be perfect, but then again…so what happens then?

Why didn't you offer a playtest earlier on? Free or otherwise?



#39 N0-1_H3r3

N0-1_H3r3

    Former Contributing Freelance Writer

  • Members
  • 3,350 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:58 PM

signoftheserpent said:

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm stating a difference, nothing more.

I cannot, and do not, speak on behalf of FFG or anyone other than myself. However, it should be noted that the Only War Beta is not a replacement for traditional playtesting and proofreading - those have already been done, as denoted by the fact that there are playtest and proofreading credits in the Beta document - which more than implies that the Beta itself is a final pass, an additional level of testing above and beyond the norm, little different to what many computer game publishers have done over the last few years (selling access to a final-stage open beta).


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer,Ark of Lost Souls, and Hammer of the Emperor

I no longer write for, or am employed by, Fantasy Flight Games in any fashion. All of my comments are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any employer, past, present, or future.

#40 signoftheserpent

signoftheserpent

    Member

  • Members
  • 853 posts

Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:58 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

signoftheserpent said:

Are you saying that the writers are under the impression they won't have to change rules much (nevermind that people are doing the job of proofreading for you as well, which is a professional job you hire people to do)? Is that then playtesting with an open mind?

 

I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm stating a difference, nothing more.

I cannot, and do not, speak on behalf of FFG or anyone other than myself. However, it should be noted that the Only War Beta is not a replacement for traditional playtesting and proofreading - those have already been done, as denoted by the fact that there are playtest and proofreading credits in the Beta document - which more than implies that the Beta itself is a final pass, an additional level of testing above and beyond the norm, little different to what many computer game publishers have done over the last few years (selling access to a final-stage open beta).

So what is the purpose of this? There are forums above this one dedicated to exactly that. The proofreading forum is chapter by chapter for people to post mistakes that whoever has proofread already. If you're paying someone to proofread (as you would with any book), which is presumably what is meant by traditional proofreading, then is the focus of this really just FFG offsetting their costs (costs otherwise covered by the RRP of the final product).

As a customer I'm happy to support work I enjoy by paying for it and saying things like 'this is a good book or game'. What I do not like is being fleeced or treated in a dishonest way. This feels to me, now, like FFG are double dipping. If you want to offer early access to the game, perhaps for the purposes of promotion by demoing it, then that's fine, but be honest about it, and have a proper recruitment process.

Charging fans more than a few bucks (this isn't a finished product, and $20 for even a finished digital file is pretty heinous) for a product that has, at best, a limited shelf life, and saying they are welcome to playtest it, but with no guarantee any errors spotted will be fixed (especially if the expectation is that we've done all the work, the only mistakes we anticipate are minor - the pages of errata that show up after every core book would suggest these epecations are erroneuous) is shady.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS