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Chaos Marine wants to pick up a fallen Grey Knight's weapon


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#21 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:32 AM

Force weapons in general are (as far as I read) based off of the stats of a primitive weapon with the mono upgrade

 

None of the listed ones in the armoury are.



#22 Annaamarth

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:41 PM

Huh.  Now that I look back there, I wonder what I was smoking.

 

The force scythe is a standard scythe, after losing primitive and felling and gaining force.

 

The force sword gets a +2 to damage as well as a +2 to pen, which would come from the mono-upgrade.

 

Force staff just gets a psy focus.

 

Yeah, there's no pattern, and the GK nemesis sword is a downgrade.  Woot.

 

Edit: clarifications.  Also- wow, force weapons have some mediocre base stats.  I guess I can't expect them to shine until PR 6+ or so, but still. Give me a thunder hammer or power sword... or a hellblade.

 

Hellblades solve problems- if you can keep one from discorporating with its bloodletter.


Edited by Annaamarth, 11 December 2013 - 12:36 PM.

RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#23 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 07:29 PM

Huh.  Now that I look back there, I wonder what I was smoking.

 

The force scythe is a standard scythe, after losing primitive and felling and gaining force.

 

The force sword gets a +2 to damage as well as a +2 to pen, which would come from the mono-upgrade.

 

Force staff just gets a psy focus.

 

Yeah, there's no pattern, and the GK nemesis sword is a downgrade.  Woot.

 

Edit: clarifications.  Also- wow, force weapons have some mediocre base stats.  I guess I can't expect them to shine until PR 6+ or so, but still. Give me a thunder hammer or power sword... or a hellblade.

 

Hellblades solve problems- if you can keep one from discorporating with its bloodletter.

 

I think the Nemesis weapon is less a downgrade than that somebody gave it the wrong stats (I don't think they even gave it Power Field). I should look up what it has in Daemonhunter.

 

EDIT: Yup. The Daemonhunter Nemesis Force Sword is 1d10+2 Pen 2 (just like the FS in the BC armoury) + Power Field + Sanctified. So assuming the GK in the enemies section is wielding this thing, it should do 1d10+15 Pen 4 (more damage, lower Pen), including his Psy Rating.

 

It's identical to the BC armoury sword except that it has Power Field and Sanctified. And it has a frilly thing that adds to Force Field ratings.

 

Also, the GK in the BC book doesn't seem to have the Aegis represented anywhere, although the text mentions it. What it SHOULD do, going by the DH to BC conversion rules, is give Focus Poiwer Tests targeting the Grey Knight a -10 penalty.

 

EDIT: the strength of force weapons is in the, um, Force quality. That can churn out obscene damage and can't be compared with a power sword. A PR2 sorcerer with WP 45, on Fettered, can churn out an extra 5d10 damage.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 11 December 2013 - 09:24 PM.


#24 Annaamarth

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:23 PM

Force weapons never get power field, with a few possible exceptions.  They get Force instead.  It is worth noting that Power Fields can't break Force weapons, so it's k.  I guess Nemesis weapons are weird.

 

Re: Force damage- that requires an opposed willpower test, so against bob the mook I think it can go quite a bit higher... and against a Greater Daemon it's probably going to do squat diddly.  Since bob the mook was going to die messily anyway, I don't see that as being terribly great.

 

Don't get me wrong, a PR 5 psyker with a WP of 50 could easily get a bonus 2 or 3 d10 against a bloodthirster, but he could just as easily get ****-all.  Opposed tests have a BIG standard of deviation.

 

Just to compare.  Let's say bob the mook has a WP of 35, and you have a PR3 WP 45 force weapon-wielding bamf.  He rolls a 100, you roll and 01.  You win by 44 (54, after including the effective psy rating of 2 for the fettered focus), for 5 DoS (6 DoS), he fails by 65 for 7 DoF, for a difference of 12 (13) degrees.  That's a bonus 6d10 damage, cos you got 6 DoS, innit?  Am I doing it wrong?  Anyway, bob the mook asplode.

 

Vice versa, if you're facing down a Lord of Change with a Willpower of 80+, his own pool of infamy points, and unnatural Willpower of 12 (not unreasonable for a named Feathered Lord and major opponent, I think), you're never going to trigger force, ever- and that's the guy you really need the damage against.

 

personally, I like the +PR to damage and pen part better.  It's reliable and nasty, and that combination can be hard to find in the Vortex.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#25 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:31 PM

start quote -- formatting screwed

 


Force weapons never get power field, with a few possible exceptions.  They get Force instead.  It is worth noting that Power Fields can't break Force weapons, so it's k.  I guess Nemesis weapons are weird.

 

Re: Force damage- that requires an opposed willpower test, so against bob the mook I think it can go quite a bit higher... and against a Greater Daemon it's probably going to do squat diddly.  Since bob the mook was going to die messily anyway, I don't see that as being terribly great.

 

Don't get me wrong, a PR 5 psyker with a WP of 50 could easily get a bonus 2 or 3 d10 against a bloodthirster, but he could just as easily get ****-all.  Opposed tests have a BIG standard of deviation.

 

Just to compare.  Let's say bob the mook has a WP of 35, and you have a PR3 WP 45 force weapon-wielding bamf.  He rolls a 100, you roll and 01.  You win by 44 (54, after including the effective psy rating of 2 for the fettered focus), for 5 DoS (6 DoS), he fails by 65 for 7 DoF, for a difference of 12 (13) degrees.  That's a bonus 6d10 damage, cos you got 6 DoS, innit?  Am I doing it wrong?  Anyway, bob the mook asplode.

 

Vice versa, if you're facing down a Lord of Change with a Willpower of 80+, his own pool of infamy points, and unnatural Willpower of 12 (not unreasonable for a named Feathered Lord and major opponent, I think), you're never going to trigger force, ever- and that's the guy you really need the damage against.

 

personally, I like the +PR to damage and pen part better.  It's reliable and nasty, and that combination can be hard to find in the Vortex.

 

end quote

 

Nemesis weapons are specifically stated to have power fields.

 

Anybody is supposed to die in combat with a Greater Daemon... :)

 

Plus, I mean, you're choosing a LORD OF CHANGE, a bastion of psychic might, as the comparison. :)

 

Not just that, but a Lord of Change with Unnatural Willpower. :)

 

Try comparing it to a Tomb Stalker instead.

 

WAIT. You don't factor one party's Degrees of Failure into account when determining Degrees of Success of the opposed side.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 11 December 2013 - 09:49 PM.


#26 Annaamarth

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:53 PM

Just to compare.  Let's say bob the mook has a WP of 35, and you have a PR3 WP 45 force weapon-wielding bamf.  He rolls a 100, you roll and 01.  You win by 44 (54, after including the effective psy rating of 2 for the fettered focus), for 5 DoS (6 DoS), he fails by 65 for 7 DoF, for a difference of 12 (13) degrees.  That's a bonus 6d10 damage, cos you got 6 DoS, innit?  Am I doing it wrong?  Anyway, bob the mook asplode.

 

 

 

You win by 44 (54, after including the effective psy rating of 2 for the fettered focus test of +10), for 5 DoS (6 DoS after the bonus), he fails by 65 for 7 DoF, for a difference of 12 (13 after bonus) degrees.  That's a bonus 6d10 damage, cos you got 6 DoS, innit?

 

 

Bold for emphasis.  The DoFs didn't modify the result.  Originally I thought they might, looked it up to verify, and recognized that they did not.  Had a brain fart for a bit, there.

 

Good to know about Nemesis weapons being power fielded.  Those stats from Daemon Hunter?  Bear in mind that cross-game stats rarely translate cleanly.  Look at the pre-errata Astartes Heavy Bolter and compare it to the Legion Heavy Bolter for a great example.

 

Also, I think a good party of renegades with a bunch of xp under their belts and a solid collection of acquisitions ought to be able to have the chance to take on a Bloodthirster- or even Kairos Fateweaver.  After a game has gone on long enough, I want my players to have daemon weapons, terminator armour and high quality force fields- because I'm going to challenge them.

 

Black Crusade is a fairly high-level game by design, and I try to treat it as such.  I approach it with the mentality that I learned from Exalted, rather than the Shadowrun mentality appropriate to Dark Heresy.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#27 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:58 PM

 


 

Good to know about Nemesis weapons being power fielded.  Those stats from Daemon Hunter?  Bear in mind that cross-game stats rarely translate cleanly.  Look at the pre-errata Astartes Heavy Bolter and compare it to the Legion Heavy Bolter for a great example.

 


 

 

Yes, but Daemon Hunter uses the same weapon stats as in Black Crusade (and the Deathwatch errata). 1d10+9 Pen 4 Astartes bolters etc.

 

BC is a high-power game, but I balk at slaying a greater daemon without serious NPC support. (Though I realize that RAW a psyker with Force Barrage won't have too much of a problem.)



#28 Annaamarth

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 11:39 PM

Yes, yes, Force Barrage OP.  It's houseruled already.

 

I didn't say it should be easy- just that a group of four or more renegades ought to have a chance, especially if one or more are Astartes, Hereteks or Psykers (with or without Force Barrage).

 

Side note: even at the 1d10+33 value that seems so often quoted, with however many hits, a Bloodthirster has a TB of 12 (after losing bonus from Daemonic), armour 13 and 195 wounds.  Each hit is reduced by 25, for 1d10+8.  The Bloodthirster soaks- and that's assuming you don't provide a Brass Collar of Khorne (and why wouldn't a Bloodthirster have one?).  Really, all a psyker has to offer in that fight is group buffs and indirect damage (telekinetically throwing buildings or something else).

 

Anyways, we've gotten rather off topic.  Original question?  Sure, take that nemesis weapon, corrupt it via ritual and turn it into a Daemon Weapon.


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played


#29 VIsix6

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:46 AM

hey im new and to help me understand  bogi comment about the RAW psyker, what does RAW mean, like raw power or something else


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#30 Routa-maa

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:05 AM

RAW = Rules As Written

RAI = Rules As Intented


Edited by Routa-maa, 17 January 2014 - 02:06 AM.

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#31 VIsix6

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 10:55 AM

ok thank you that will help a lot


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#32 DarkHammer

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:59 PM

I say let 'em go for it

 

A ritual of some sort ought to handle the force attunement issue (moot if not a psyker)

 

Genelock on the power weapon could be gotten around, mebbe via dark mechanicus help?

(Argel Tal did it in the Horus Heresy books with 2 Custodes weapons)

 

... hunt down the nearest warpsmith/idolitrex for one stop shopping =)

 

In any event it'll make a very shiny trophy



#33 htsmithium

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 09:47 AM

Come to think of it if you managed to kill a grey knight I imagine a khorne character would be vary interested in the agies armor and it's anti-physic capabilities.   


 ding dong mala mortuus est,

quem veteres strigam

impii strigam

ding dong impiorum strigam mortuus est.


#34 FieserMoep

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 12:15 PM

Just that he cant use the anti-psyker abilities because he is no psyker himself.



#35 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 11:36 PM

Doesn't the aegis work because it's blessed and whatnot?

 

Personally I would have the armour scald the chaos guy's skin just by touching it, but that's me.


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 07 May 2014 - 11:36 PM.


#36 FieserMoep

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:19 AM

Blessings alone would be simply hexagramic wards in terms of FFG rulebooks and actually bear imperial heraldry, symbols and chants. Somehow I doubt I Khrone-Berserker would carry such insignia of the corpse god without mutilating it and hence destroying its outer protection against psychic powers. But besides that the real power of an Aegis armor is the psycic warrior inside.

 

Just as a Force Weapon is made of alloy that concentrates the psychic power of its wielder, an Aegis armor has alloys and is made of materials and wards that are fueled by the Grey Knights psychic potential and hence only work with a psyker that also has the proper training to actually use such an armor. In the end it all depends on how your GM interpretates the armor but never the less for a non psyker they are of no special use.

 

In terms of equipment, training, skill and potential grey knights are the unicorns of WH40k.



#37 Tenebrae

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:52 AM

In terms of equipment, training, skill and potential grey knights are the unicorns of WH40k.

Fielding one is a sure sign of being a virgin?

#38 FieserMoep

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 02:10 PM

 

Fielding one is a sure sign of being a virgin?

 

 

Sadly... these days its mostly true...

But in the old days... we were the meanest sort of badass unicorns with one of the most self-punishing codexes (so we liked to believe xD)... and the fair Sororitas loved us... until we began to slaughter them... for... additional virginity protection.... dont get it to this day...^^


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#39 Tenebrae

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:18 PM

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matt_Ward


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#40 Crazyrat621

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 10:14 AM

One thing I'd like to add is that if he does corrupt it he should get some bonus infamy for doing so. I'd think the dark gods would love seeing such a symbol of the corpse god corrupted.






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