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When have you resolved social challenges in encounter mode?


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#41 RARodger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 06:10 AM

HedgeWizard said:

PS - one of these days, when I have some free time I plan on re-working that overview (there are some errors in it) as well as incorporate the nobility/shame stuff.

Since you've seem to have thought about this a lot, and I assume you actually use these techniques at the table, can you speak to my original question? I'm still trying to get a sense of how people transition from story mode to encounter mode in social encounters.

I also hadn't thought of translating the Burning Wheel style of building supporting actions into a main action into building a die pool in WFRP. I can see that working well, each character taking actions that contribute dice to the pool…



#42 captaincutlass

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:05 AM

I would like to thank all of you for your wonderful insights, I've been reding this topic prior to our session from 2 days ago and they were really helpful.

If you are interested you can find the results of our "social combat" in our latest session MP3.

www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/the-black-monolith/adventure-log

Session 4.

I hope those of you with reservations or those that are apprehensive (like I was) can find some use or inspiration in it. Feel free to comment.

It was difficult to prepare, but even though all the dice were in a bad mood we had a wonderful session and a great learning experience.

I don't believe you need to choose between Roll or Role playing, you can do both. Even though I would like to see some more official or even custom fanmade Social actions.



#43 RARodger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:52 AM

captaincutlass said:

I don't believe you need to choose between Roll or Role playing, you can do both. Even though I would like to see some more official or even custom fanmade Social actions.

I look forward to listening to it.

And I agree with the above sentiment. Hell, I've seen people roleplay with Diplomacy and Monopoly. As far as I'm concerned if you make choices appropriate to your character, whatever the mechanics are that is roleplaying.



#44 nephtys

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:03 AM

RARodger said:

captaincutlass said:

 

I don't believe you need to choose between Roll or Role playing, you can do both. Even though I would like to see some more official or even custom fanmade Social actions.

 

 

I look forward to listening to it.

And I agree with the above sentiment. Hell, I've seen people roleplay with Diplomacy and Monopoly. As far as I'm concerned if you make choices appropriate to your character, whatever the mechanics are that is roleplaying.

10 out of 10!

we have been playing social encounters mostly without rolling dice for like 10 years now and so we have a hard time getting to it. with that our veteran players know how to roleplay their characters quite nicely and that normally makes rolling unnecessary, as they do exactly what their character would do.

for new players….once we get a new player i will try to implement that, so to maybe make it easier for him to get into the system and roleplaying per se. but still, i fear that once you just have to roll dice to convince someone of your point a new player will never connect with his character or get into it and play a role…



#45 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

nephtys said:

 

but still, i fear that once you just have to roll dice to convince someone of your point a new player will never connect with his character or get into it and play a role…

 

 

I have never seen these two things to be related. Playing a character (one with drives, needs, ambitions, etc), and rolling to see if an NPC is influenced by a PC are two totally separate things. 


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#46 RARodger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

Doc, the Weasel said:

nephtys said:

 

but still, i fear that once you just have to roll dice to convince someone of your point a new player will never connect with his character or get into it and play a role…

 

 

I have never seen these two things to be related. Playing a character (one with drives, needs, ambitions, etc), and rolling to see if an NPC is influenced by a PC are two totally separate things. 

Indeed, Doc.



#47 phild

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 08:25 PM

As ever, I think all of our views are probably broadly the same, but an online discussion like this makes nuances seem like fundamental philosophical differences. I think the trick is to balance using the game mechanics sufficiently to allow a player's vision of their character to take shape, whilst still encouraging players just to actively roleplay up to the limit (or maybe a tiny bit beyond) their individual comfort zones. I'm sure in truth, we all do it to some degree - although I know I could definitely try to do it a bit better.



#48 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:13 AM

phild said:

Though if Shame becomes the "generic" threshold for all social actions, I'm inclined to rename it Influence threshold or Intrigue or something more generic than Shame, which is very specific to noble-on-noble social duelling.

 

Yes, I do think Shame as the concept is kinda narrow if we think of how broad social encounters could be. So changing the name to represent that seems like a good idea to me.

At the same time,  the mechanic of Shame is so simple that it could even be translated to other situations where shame wouldn't be the primary focus. As soon as I read those rules, I was thinking that if the PCs engaged a Professor from Nuln College and are trying to convince him that some noble is a witch, they could find themselves discussing different theories about what happened in the murder scene last night and about how Hedge Magic works, and so they could be aiming each others "Reason", being a treshold made by Intelligence plus trainings in Education, for example. As we know, a Battle of Wits isn't really about what's truth, but how each argument is shown and how it can be applied to what the other person has already said.

If you are so willing, you could easily keep track of different tresholds like that, basing a social encounter in Reason, but also tracking Shame as some characters might be trying to get the Professor's assistent out of the conversation by stating how the young man's lack of disposition to be in the murder scene because of the body lying there would count him out as a collaborator in this matter, as well as his eagerness to impress the family of the noble in accountance to his clear lust directed to the Noble's young and beatiful daughter.

That's the beaty, to me, of a variable that disappears at the end of the encounter: you can use similar mechanics to create the variable that would fit your encounter, and then translate it to any other variable that would linger and that has stronger ties to the rest of the system, like Stress.



#49 HedgeWizard

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 08:03 AM

 Here's a thing I've been noodling on this topic for the last 6+ months.  Taking queues from the social combat rules form ASOIAF RPG (Game of Thrones) as well as Mouse Guard (Burning Wheel light) we want to try adapting the combat rules. 

Principles we wanted:

  1. Something that was no more complex than combat
  2. Something where even non-social oriented could affect the outcome, but the strength was given to socially invested characters

Cribbing from ASOIAF we call these "Social Intrigues".  MOST rolls are still one-and-done. One check and they're resolved, but when you need to convince someone who is resistant, or they have opposing goals they're trying to get the PCs to commit to, etc. we go for an Intrigue. 

Roll Initiative as normal.  PCs and NPCs declare an overall goal, which if they defeat their opponent(s) they will get (though it may be modified ala Burning Wheel such that if they just barely succeed, they have to accommodate the loser in some way). Changing goals mid-Intrigue allows their opponent to recover 1/2 of their overall Intrigue Hit Points (IHP).  Difficulty of the overal checks is determined in part by Goals (something ridiculous should be modified accordingly), along with any of your standard social engagement modifiers. 

  • Intrigue HP = 3x WP + ranks of Discipline + Noble Ranks

As in combat, you have a damage output and a resistance modifier. 

  • Influence Damage = Characteristic (usually Fel) + Ranks in applied Skill (e.g. Charm) + Recharge Rating from the Action Card used. 
  • Intrigue Resistance (IR) = WP + x2(Ranks in Discipline)

Follows standard encounter rules in terms of initiative, etc. (E.g. min damage is 1 for successful attacks that don't breach IR). I also have a house rule for regular & social combat: 3 extra successes over the greatest success line of the action used allow you to add your related skill ranks to overall damage. E.g. 3 ranks of WS would add 3 damage. 1 Charm rank would add 1 damage.  

By using the Recharge rating, it gives PCs who have invested in Social cards a very strong benefit, but it allows non-social characters the opportunity to affect the outcome as well (just as weak combat characters can help to bring a foe). 

We haven't tested it thoroughly, but it has worked very nicely so far.  

The last related modifier. +1 challenge if opponent's Noble Rank is higher, -1 challenge if opponent's Noble Rank is lower. 



#50 Emirikol

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 12:42 PM

I would like to somehow integrate "critical" shame.  Normally it goes away between encounter.  Anybody have any thoughts on integration?

 

 

jh



#51 Emirikol

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:08 PM

I'm going to Necro this because

I've just made a terrible, terrible discovery:

 

I just found five actions from a scenario that aren't in the Creature Vault:

 

  • Who are you Going to Believe (Social, NPC)- used by Farial Trefoil
  • I'm Outta Here! (Basic, NPC) - Used by Rudi Zalt
  • Stunty Splitta (Basic, NPC) Used by Gnashrukk
  • Is That So? (Basic NPC) - Used by Barnock Duran
  • Where's Your Honor? (Basic, NPC) - Used By Barnock Duran

Edited by Emirikol, 07 June 2014 - 10:14 PM.


#52 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 11:17 AM

 

I'm going to Necro this because

I've just made a terrible, terrible discovery:

 

I just found five actions from a scenario that aren't in the Creature Vault:

 

  • Who are you Going to Believe (Social, NPC)- used by Farial Trefoil
  • I'm Outta Here! (Basic, NPC) - Used by Rudi Zalt
  • Stunty Splitta (Basic, NPC) Used by Gnashrukk
  • Is That So? (Basic NPC) - Used by Barnock Duran
  • Where's Your Honor? (Basic, NPC) - Used By Barnock Duran

 

 

Can I ask what scenario those are from? Farial Trefoil, Rudi Zalt, Gnashrukk, and Barnock Duran aren't ringing any bells for me. Which adventure, from which book or boxed set, contains those actions?



#53 Emirikol

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:33 PM

It was a scenario that I had forgotten about but then was reviewing for my Random Adventure Generator Excel Program.  

 

Hint..you can download it for free...



#54 valvorik

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:39 PM

Some at least are from the free Black Fire Pass demo adventure.

 

Coincidentally I was making NPC action cards for a couple of those from the free Blackfire Pass adventure yesterday.

 

I have a "Shamed condition" that lingers and adds two misfortune to all social actions.



#55 Emirikol

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:38 PM

Ah!  You ruins' the suspense! Curses!    ;)


Edited by Emirikol, 09 June 2014 - 06:41 PM.


#56 r_b_bergstrom

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:32 AM

I was starting to worry that I hadn't at least skimmed the adventure in one of the boxed sets I purchased. Turns out instead I just never downloaded the promotional adventure. Guess I must have assumed it was an excerpt from the actual boxed set, and therefore redundant. Silly me. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, guys.

 

Val, if you've already made those cards in Strange Eons, any chance you could shoot them over to me?

 

P.S.: I like the idea of the Shamed condition, how long do you have it linger?






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