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inspect your opponent's deck


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#1 Dark Initiate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:08 AM

Is there a rule that says that you are permitted to inspect your opponent's deck prior to play?  Someone told me that there was such a rule, but I cannot find anything in the rule book.  I am wondering how this would work in an upcoming regional in which I plan to participate.



#2 Yipe

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:39 AM

I haven't read any rule that allows you to inspect your opponent's deck prior to play.

You are allowed to look at your opponent's resources and discard pile at any time (section 2.35 of FAQ v2.1).  As this section of the FAQ doesn't stipulate a player's deck is also public information, then I would say you can't look at it at (unless specified by a card effect).



#3 jhaelen

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:10 AM

Dark Initiate said:

Is there a rule that says that you are permitted to inspect your opponent's deck prior to play?  Someone told me that there was such a rule, but I cannot find anything in the rule book.  I am wondering how this would work in an upcoming regional in which I plan to participate.

Nope.

But at tournaments, the judge is allowed to inspect your deck, either to make sure it matches the decklist you provided or if an opponent claims it's illegal (e.g. too few cards, too many restricted cards, etc.).



#4 Dark Initiate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:30 AM

"the judge is allowed to inspect your deck".

Seems problematic as judges can also be participants.



#5 Dark Initiate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:32 AM

Or are deck lists public, at tournaments?



#6 Yipe

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:38 AM

Dark Initiate said:

Or are deck lists public, at tournaments?

Speaking as an upcoming Tournament Organizer and judge, for our regional championship all players must submit a deck list, but that list will be held by the venue's host and remain unseen by anyone participating in the event.

Only in the case of a direct and specific complaint will a judge inspect a player's deck.  If possible, it will be a judge (we have 3) that has played against the deck already.

To my knowledge, deck lists aren't public information at CoC LCG tournaments.



#7 Dark Initiate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:52 AM

"Only in the case of a direct and specific complaint will a judge inspect a player's deck."  OK. 

Does the same hold for "decklist" as well as "deck"?  So that we have: Only in the case of a direct and specific complaint will a judge inspect a player's deck or decklist.



#8 TheProfessor

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:00 AM

 I think in a tournament setting, the Judge is welcome to inspect anybody's deck and decklist at their discretion (random screening).  Of course if the Judge is an active player in the tournament, I would limit this to after the tournament is over.  But there does need to be something that keeps potential cheaters at bay.

But certainly if there is a reasonable concern during the tournament the Judge should dispel that concern.



#9 Dark Initiate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 08:47 AM

jhaelen, Yipe, and TheProfessor: Thanks!  Very useful information.



#10 Magnus Arcanis

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:23 PM

A player-judge should never really inspect a player's deck unless due to a card/game effect.

Player-judges should probably find a non-participant to resolve mid-tournament deck checks if possible. Though the "only if a player-judge has already played against that deck" isn't terrible solution. Still not good in my opinion but better than the alternative.

 



#11 Yipe

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:41 PM

Before this discussion goes any further, I just want to clarify that my position and proposed solution on how/why a judge should inspect a player's deck is in no way official.  As the Tournament Organizer for our regional championship, it's simply my way of dealing with a potential problem - a problem I'm hoping we don't encounter, but must be prepared for nonetheless.

I agree with Magnus Arcanis that in an ideal setting a player-judge would never inspect another player's deck.  Unfortunately for our local group, anyone who knows how to play the game will be in the tournament.  Unless it's a simple card counting issue, there won't be a non-participant at the venue that knows the rules enough to reasonably assess a player's deck.  Of course, there are ways around this (a judge giving verbal instructions to a non-participant who is acting as a sort of "blind"), but they are cumbersome.

This type of ruling should probably be sorted out by FFG, but ultimately I think it's just part of playing in a smaller tournament environment that doesn't have the same level of support and formality as the bigger, more competitive CCGs.

On a positive note, I doubt this will be an issue for our group.  Everyone I've met is pretty darn friendly.  Heck, for our meet-up yesterday we started a new tradition where the winner buys the loser a beer (we play in a bar of sorts).  Needless to say, I don't think I'll be going thirsty at regionals.



#12 Magnus Arcanis

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:24 PM

Ya, as I've said before, the cthulhu community is simply the best. With a few exceptions, everyone is usually pretty honest so things like this don't come up often. Though… of course when they do things don't turn out too well for those who are dishonest.

Still though, most deck checks/insepctions are merely to cofirm count and card selection which can be done by someone who doesn't even know what a card game is. Though in a case of say… deck checking for deck stacking may need a player-judge to look. However, this power should never be abused by the player-judge and I can't imagine a scenario where a member of the CoC community would do that.

Also, what I've said is also not official, but is most certainly logical. ;)



#13 jasonconlon

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:38 PM

Related question, although I'm guessing I'd need to ask FFG directly...

Are you allowed to check/ask how many cards are remaining in a deck - your opponents deck, and your own?

#14 jhaelen

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 02:36 AM

I don't think you are officially allowed to check the number of cards remaining. However, since everything else is open information (number of cards in hand, in discard, in play, and resourced) you can make a pretty good guess, since most decks have exactly 50 cards (plus, very rarely, no more than a handful).

 

If you're using a milling deck, your opponent will also sometimes do the counting for you, when he starts getting nervous about being decked - then you just have to pay attention ;)


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#15 jasonconlon

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Posted 22 August 2013 - 04:24 PM

So I asked Damon about this one --

What is considered public information in Call of Cthulhu?

The FAQ specifies that resources and discard piles can be inspected, as --
"(2.22) Resources and Discard Pile
These zones of play are considered to be public information and can be viewed freely by either player during the course of the game."


An opponent's hand is not public information, but is the number of cards they have in hand public information?
I presume so, as this needs to be known to resolve card effects like Gun Runner's Club--"Action: Exhaust Gun Runner's Club to draw a card. Use this ability only if an opponent has more cards in hand than you."

Neither an opponent's nor your own deck is public information, but is the number of cards remaining in your or your opponent's deck public information? If so, when can it be counted (or request to be counted), and who can count it?
This is the one I'm really interested to know.

Here's his response --

The number of cards in each location is open knowledge. If there is continual asking and the count is large (and the count is always performed by the owner of the cards) the player runs the risk of a delay of game/stalling/slow play call. Requests should be relevant to the current game state and tactics and not used as a means of intimidation or stalling.

Whether or not it is relevant or stalling is subjective of course, but that is why we have TO's and judges. It is up to them to determine, and they may base that decision on any set of criteria they wish. In a word, it should not be abused.


Edited by jasonconlon, 22 August 2013 - 04:25 PM.

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#16 jhaelen

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:46 AM

Thanks for getting an official answer! This is quite interesting and actually recently came up in a game. I was quite sure that it wasn't public knowledge, but there you go.



#17 jasonconlon

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, with Yithian discard being a top tier deck type, it's going to come up more and more.






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