Note that these questions were asked in relation to the Wandering Tinker topic here
I have some questions about Responses and Forced Responses that I'm hoping you can help me with.
Are Forced Responses a special type of Response? In other words, are things that apply to Responses also applicable to Forced Responses, albeit with particular exceptions - such as Forced Responses being compulsory game effects as opposed to optional player effects..? Or are they really different things that happen to share a descriptor?
To be more specific..
Consider this scenario, which inspires my questions:
I have previously attached Indebted to an opponent's character, and at the end of my opponent's Resource phase the Forced Response triggers, but he is unable to pay 2 and therefore sacrifices that character. I have Wandering Tinker in play, and exhaust it to trigger its Disrupt ability to relocate Indebted from the current character to another of my opponent's characters.
Wandering Tinker (Denizens of the Underworld, F38) reads:
Disrupt: When a character would leave play, exhaust Wandering Tinker to choose a non-Relic support card attached to that character. Take control of that attachment and move it to another character.
Indebted (Denizens of the Underworld, F26) reads:
Attach to a non-Ancient One character.
Attached character gains, “Forced Response: After your resource phase ends, pay 2 or sacrifice this character.”
1.i) The Timing Structure section in the FAQ states, under Response “Opportunities”, that: "When the requirements (or “play restrictions”) for playing a response are met, the response is said to have an “opportunity.” .. You can think of opportunities as “gates” that open up, allowing you to play specific responses during an action window." Is this also the case for Forced Responses, that a gate is opened after a requirement is met which doesn't close until all Forced Responses to that requirement are completed (albeit with the difference that these Forced Responses must be triggered)?
That is, when the condition of the Forced Response trigger is met, does a window now open for all Forced Responses related to that to now be triggered, with that window not closing until all Forced Responses are triggered - and could this include Forced Responses that were not present/available at the time of the condition being met but that become present/available during this window, as can happen with Responses?
For instance with the given scenario, when the Resource phase ends, is it only the first Indebted character who is effected as being the only character present at the time of the condition, or is the second Indebted character also effected who gained the same Forced Response trigger while the initial Forced Response window for that requirement was still opened?
1.ii) The Timing Structure section in the FAQ states, under The Action Window in Detail - 5) Forced Responses, that: "After any passive abilities triggered as a result of the action or disrupt are resolved, forced responses that trigger off the action, the disrupt or passive ability resolved previously during the Action Window now trigger in the order determined by the active player."
Where there are multiple Forced Responses to be resolved, does the active player determine the sequence all at once (e.g. card A first, card B second, card C third - now start resolving A, B then C), or one after the other (e.g. card A first - now resolve card A; card B second - now resolve card B; card C third - now resolve card C)?
If it is all at once, does this preclude cards from being inserted in to or appended to the sequence that later became available during the Forced Response window?
2.i) The Timing Rules section in the rules states, with reference to 'Response's, that: "A response can only be played once per trigger." I assume this is also applicable to Forced Responses?
(Note that the only reference to such things in the FAQ is the statement in 2.23 Zones of Play, in the Out of Play section, which states: "A card whose effect triggers as a response from the discard pile may only be triggered once per met trigger requirement.")
2.ii) Further, when a card is giving text to something else, is it the card gaining the text that provides the trigger, or is it the card granting the text that provides the trigger?
For instance with the given scenario, because the first instance of Indebted's gained Forced Response text triggered with the first character, when Indebted is relocated to a new character is it now considered a new Forced Response because it's a different character that has gained that text, or is it considered the same Forced Response that was already triggered because it's the same Indebted card providing the text?
Hope you can help clarify things for me, both in relation to the specific example provided, and to understand these things in a general sense to better understand the rules to apply them to other situations.
Rather than trying to think of Forced Responses as a subset of Responses (they are entirely separate though some elements are nearly identical), the FAQ outlines that Forced Responses are like Passives, except they respond to something rather than modify it, and passives cannot be canceled.
All passives whose requirements have been met initiate at the same time, and those that conflict are then resolved in the order of the active player. Forced Responses are the same. The window to trigger them happens and they all trigger simultaneously, and the order they are resolved in is determined by the active player, so by the time the original character with indebted is leaving play all forced responses to the end of the resource phase have been initiated, the disrupt is on the character leaving play not on an effect that causes the character to leave play, though even that wouldn't allow for chaining Indebted since if it is responding to an effect that would cause it to leave play and that effect is interrupted for the attachment to leave play, that attachment could no longer finish resolving on the formerly attached character and would instead try to resolve on the new character.
As to one forced response per trigger, that is not needed since the game will not make an attempt to do so because the thing can happen only once because the trigger is met only once. Because responses are player “actions” you could, without that statement, attempt to trigger it multiple times the same way you could an action.
This all means it is immaterial in this case whether it is a the same or a new forced response because that moment of trigger condition has been met the game has initiated all appropriate force responses and their resolution after the fact does not provide a new opportunity for the same trigger to be met again, unless of course it is a brand new trigger requirement. Generally speaking though, “gained” text is considered to be an ability on the card that has gained it, not on the card that is giving it, so if I had a card that said, “Attached characters gains, ‘Action: Pay 1 to ready a character and remove it from a story. Limit once per turn.’” I could bounce that attachment to all my characters and pay 1 for as many domains as I have available because each character would be gaining a new ability so would not yet have met the limitation, and once removed, if the attachment came back, it would still be considered a new ability
I hope that helps.
Referring to the timing steps for the Forced Response:
1) Initiate forced response
2) Disrupt (only for the preceding forced response)
3) Execute forced response
4) Resolve passive abilities whose requirements are now met by the forced response, etc. (following the same steps as Step 4 (I through V of the action window))
5) Resolve forced responses triggered by the force response, etc. (following the same steps as Step 4 (I through V of the action window))
Where there are multiple Forced Responses in play with the same trigger (e.g. had there been two copies of Indebted attached to two separate characters), how does the timing work? Do they simultaneously share step 1), at which point the active player determines the order of resolution, and then each Forced Response passes through steps 2) to 5) separately one after the other? Or is there a step preceding this - the triggering, which is the only thing that is simultaneous, following which the active player determines the order, and then each Forced Response passes through steps 1) to 5) separately one after the other?
And with the active player determining the order of resolution, does he have to determine the entire sequence in that moment, or can he choose the subsequent Forced Response one at a time after each resolves?
You are looking in the wrong spot, that is how to resolve a single Forced Response, what you want is the timing chart that says when Forced Responses initiate...
1. Action is initiated.
3. Action is executed.
4. Passive abilities (requirements now met) are initiated.
I. Passive ability is initiated.
III. Passive ability is executed. (Follow steps I through V, etc)
IV. Other passive abilities (requirements now met) are initiated.
V. Forced Responses are initiated.
5. Forced Responses (requirements now met) are initiated.
I. Forced Response ability is triggered.
III. Forced Response is executed. (Follow steps I through V, etc.)
IV. Passive abilities are initiated.
V. Other forced responses (requirements now met) are initiated.
So what we have here is the moment where the game checks all Forced Responses is step 5. They all initiate, and then resolve using the chart you quoted below.
The active player will make a choice of which Forced Response will be resolved one at a time, resolving each until completion.
I now understand that Forced Responses have to be present/available at the time the requirement is met to initiate, and Forced Responses initiate simultaneously but are resolved one at a time; whereas Responses just need to be present/available after the requirement is met, during the response opportunity window that immediately follows, to be (optionally) initiated, and Responses both initiate and resolve one at a time
Thanks for explaining all that, Damon.
My pleasure Jason.
Edited by jasonconlon, 01 April 2014 - 07:48 PM.