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Anima: Beyond Science


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#21 Bleakheart26

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

Cause I'm limited in time and space here I'll just spit out what I could as effective as possable.



#22 Bleakheart26

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:44 AM

Cause I'm limited in time and space here I'll just spit out what I could as effective as possable.

Few things that seems to be a little mysterious Prototype Development (PrD) pg 7. (( http://www.mediafire...7942fh8otm3k18  )) or in page 6 in version 5.    Q1. Is it a skill? like what is on page 37 of the beta? just not listed? And lastly how is it used/ OR What effect does it have in the game?

Technology section is pg 80 start ---   87…  Where it talks about Cost of technology.  Last comment on that page is

(((   Inventors with Mastery in Prototype Development reduce the time required by one half.  )))  This comment suggesting that it is a skill like everything else listed on page 37 "" New Skill Fied: Technical  ""

Q2 SO… How does one ACTUALLY use the Technical Points?  Accumulate points then reduce them in "buying" an item…  then temporarily invest an equal amount of the item in order to "use it"   in example … to get it to work.

 

comment in general: as far as my story or idea-where they generated from-- The Heaven Order "pg 243" core book mentions Knights of heaven, positions that different people hold. In the next page under "Samael" the book mentions War of God… later section Entitled "The Fallen Angels"…. Skipp ahead to page 252 then starts to detail The Technomagic talking about Machinery and early on mentions they have been able to combine supernatural powers with technology and biology, creating an art which they call Technomagic. THUS I fancy some of the ideas that begin to mesh the "Beyond Fantasy" with " "Beyond Science". In my story those of heaven would have that what would be like magic compaired to those found in a broken world. (in my story all the mystical races have been split appart from normal human life seperated by the world of the Wake (spirit world). Humans live on the ground and all the world of the mystical races live their lives on floating islands that drift above and an abandoned lifeless land that is so completely overcast with black clouds.   (That is the general World Senario that exists in my game. ) Of course the conflict that is arising is that where some beings from both sides have been finding an occasional way through the wake and finding themselves in an alien land. Of course none of those go well. Mystical creatures can't last long in a land that has been "magicless" for centuries. And any normal person suddenly finding themself in a land of "monsters" would likely go a little mad.



#23 Reverare

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 07:49 AM

In response to your question.

 

Prototype Development is a Primary Skill. It is used (surprisingly enough) to make, repair and understand prototype equipment. Otherwise, you must find or purchase Prototype equipment during play. Creating or repairing Prototype equipment requires a Prototype Development check, as shown in the Prototype Section, and costs CR as shown.

 

You can possess as much prototype equipment as you can get your hands on, but can only use prototypes in play with a TP cost equal to your total TP allowance per session. Prototype equipment that does not have TP 'invested' in it does not function, but (most) Prototype equipment with TP invested in it can be used by anyone, so you can give someone else your energy shield, and they can use it without having to spend any of their own TP. TP points not used are not carried over to the next session. You cannot 'deinvest' equipment, the TP remains invested until the end of the session, even if it is subsequently lost or destroyed. You cannot receive TP from other characters, nor can they help you invest in your Prototype equipment with their own TP.

 

The best way to think of it is as Floating Martial Knowledge that renews each session, you pay the TP cost of the equipment at the beginning of the session, or during the session. You don't have to accumulate anything like it were zeon.

 

As to whether Beyond Science is compatible with Beyond Fantasy, it was certainly intended to be- see the Introduction. As noted,  the difference in power levels between the two systems is considerable in places, and there may be some confusion resulting from the two combining. I do not see this as being necessarily a bad thing however, I always wanted magic to be a more mysterious force in the Beyond Science setting. Further, I did not want to make combining magic and science easy for a player. Instead, I wanted to define their abilities as mutually exclusive, ala A Certain Magical Index.

 

For a DM though, It should be quite easy to slot in magic into Beyond Science, you can just slip in excerpts from Beyond Fantasy and ad hoc some point costs for things like MA, Psychic Points and so on.

 

 

 

 

 

 



#24 Latoshi

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 12:14 AM

Love the idea, and i know several people who play with me who would love this too.


People are not failures simply because they try and fail.

Only when they fail and give up have they truely failed.


#25 Bleakheart26

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:49 AM

Reverare said:

In response to your question.

Prototype Development is a Primary Skill. It is used (surprisingly enough) to make, repair and understand prototype equipment. Otherwise, you must find or purchase Prototype equipment during play. Creating or repairing Prototype equipment requires a Prototype Development check, as shown in the Prototype Section, and costs CR as shown.

You can possess as much prototype equipment as you can get your hands on, but can only use prototypes in play with a TP cost equal to your total TP allowance per session. Prototype equipment that does not have TP 'invested' in it does not function, but (most) Prototype equipment with TP invested in it can be used by anyone, so you can give someone else your energy shield, and they can use it without having to spend any of their own TP. TP points not used are not carried over to the next session. You cannot 'deinvest' equipment, the TP remains invested until the end of the session, even if it is subsequently lost or destroyed. You cannot receive TP from other characters, nor can they help you invest in your Prototype equipment with their own TP.

The best way to think of it is as Floating Martial Knowledge that renews each session, you pay the TP cost of the equipment at the beginning of the session, or during the session. You don't have to accumulate anything like it were zeon.

As to whether Beyond Science is compatible with Beyond Fantasy, it was certainly intended to be- see the Introduction. As noted,  the difference in power levels between the two systems is considerable in places, and there may be some confusion resulting from the two combining. I do not see this as being necessarily a bad thing however, I always wanted magic to be a more mysterious force in the Beyond Science setting. Further, I did not want to make combining magic and science easy for a player. Instead, I wanted to define their abilities as mutually exclusive, ala A Certain Magical Index.

For a DM though, It should be quite easy to slot in magic into Beyond Science, you can just slip in excerpts from Beyond Fantasy and ad hoc some point costs for things like MA, Psychic Points and so on.

I'm not trying to adgitate but follow along with responces, Maybe it could help clean up the book or fix my visual issues.

I've been looking over the beta & 5.o versions for what you were talking about. Here is all I've found in regards to Prototype Development + Technology Points. (Will use Beta pages & version unless other wise noted).

Prototype development   References Pg. 7 (Prd), Pg. 87 (Last Sentence), Pg.108 (Robotics) NOTE: v.5.0 Robotics uses Mechanical Engineering. 

Technological Points : pg. 7. (same area as PhD), pg. 37 relates to technology, pg 87 (the cost of technology)

(Notes: Only chart on any of those is the chart in the robitics section (pg 108; beta vs.), beta version ends pg 118 with pictures, 5.0 on pg 99 (the rim), while Robotics in beta uses prototype development in beta, 5.0 uses mechanical engineering, IF Mech Eng is no longer used for robotics in beta what is it used for (ie replaces forge or.. ) ?

Ok that's all i've found in the books and hope that helps explain why i'm a little confused with mechanics of the game…  So following with what you said Prototype Development (PhD) is essencially a Primary skill so Developing points are counted when totalling attack/defence/modules/wear armor or in beyond fantasy atk/def/wa/modules/Mk/mkAcu/ect. So what happen to mechanical engineering/ what is it used for/ is the 108 (robotics chart) the chart that is used for PhD checks?  Am I following along ok?

 

 Following is what a friend tossed together to Mimic the Class creation Forum for our game, to intregrate "that" with "this"

Calculated the rough CP values of the Future Classes
G Potential = Buy-in 1CP + 1/5 (max 50)
Cy Potential = Buy-in 1CP + 1/5 (max 50)
TP = But-in 2CP + 2/5 (max 75)   I REDUCE THIS TO 1/5 IN PARENTHESIS DUE TO BALANCING ISSUES YOU WILL NOTE
Adapt = 1 + 2/1 (max2)
Integ = 1 + 2/1 (max2)
Below are the class values (I have the fixed class values in parenthesis after i changed the TP cost, It seems closer this way, but still up to you)They are in order that the book lists them
Elite Trooper : 50
Co: 57 (52)
Cy: 57 (52)
Super Soldier: 38
Ace Pilot: 57.5 (52.5)
Operative: 56 (51)
Scientist 65 (55)
Evolutionary: 37.5
Scum: 39.5
Bounty Hunter: 53.5 (48.5)
So as you can see, these classes are higher CP rated than the Fantasy ones.  I think the TP cost should be 2 buy-in and 1CP/5TP after that.  I also do not plan on doing anything with Cybernetics or Genetics.
 
 


#26 Bleakheart26

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:39 AM

Anyone willing to look this over please do so and tell me whatyou think.

http://www.mediafire...ybqfbyqenpsdpx5

i'm looking into meshing the Fantasy system with the Science system. I'm also hoping that What I've done with some feeed back from one of my players is to keep both systems as intact as they can be while using both. Of course no class in ether system has the same focus except in some skills. Out side of that one has supernatural and magic while the other dominantly has Technology. So I created another field called technological ability just like Supernatural Ability and Psychic Ability. And with some help from my friend tried to have a buy-in for technology abilities.   To give you a quick run down of what is all in the excel sheet I have included the class CP costs that was created in the forum "class creation". That way anyone using it would be able to buy up or down abilities to create a custom class. IN that area I also included some of the Technology abilities and buy-in costs. The last page in that sheet is one that shows estimates of classes from fantasy and my friends estimate of beyond science. For my game I have few players that will be expected to handle greater and greater problems, including mundane. I assigned a total of 50 CP for creating custom class. While that number is higher than the fantasy estimates it is below the top end for science classes. Now to explain the first two pages in the excel sheet. First page that has a lot of green fields are active running calculations. If you change the level in the red field, everything that is based on your level will change. This is great for getting an idea on how much and where you have spent your points quickly. Think of the first page like a tally page. It does the work for the information you input on the second page. In the second page I have red field that are required for input. You would put in the cost of skills, abilities, or numbers, modifiers, stats, ect. And orange field representing the amounts you spend in development points each level. Also the yellow fields represent a number that will be a bonus each level you go up. Near the skills area I have 2 fields like this. 1) is right across from the skill and every time you go up a level it will be modified. 2) the area right across from the skill field (ie subterfuge, vigor, perception, creative, technology). If you enter a number in this field it will apply it to every skill in the field. I made the sheet with a bit of inputing work however the trade off in this is you can edit costs, buy down's/up's and change per level bonus's. Where in most sheets you can not. I tried to take into account module bonuses to mk as well as those that cost mk.  It is easy enough to clear off everything from the values.cost page then save it as blank-ready to use class creator sheet.   OH by the way another page that is on there is one that can help you keep track of what and where you got bonus cp from and where you spent your cp. it is more or less the rough blueprint of the custom class.

Be it posative or negative feed back please tell me what you think.



#27 Reverare

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:11 AM

First off, could I please ask you to use paragraphing for long posts such as these, I had to reread the previous post several times, and I'm still not sure what you're asking.

 

Regarding the new 'Technological Field', I'd definitely say it's a good idea, as it was always intended to be a separately defined Primary Ability Field. If you're willing to put in some new classes and retrofit the old ones, you can slip in Sci-Fi fields into the Beyond Fantasy rules quite nicely. It's probably quicker than the reverse, to be honest.

 

The philosophy done, you can start costing the skills. For Fantasy classes, Technological skills should be exorbitant in cost, at least equivalent to Supernatural Abilities for a Warrior archetype. A quick and dirty fix would be to find the character's Sci-Fi analogue, Weaponmaster/Elite Trooper Super Soldier/Warrior Mentalist for example, and then buy abilities as if your character had levels in the analogue, paying double the normal cost in DP. A better answer would be to invest time into deciding exactly how much technology is present in your campaign, and costing it appropriately.

 

Having read the excel spreadsheet, I'm left scratching my head over what is going on. I'm not familiar with a 'point based class creation system' in Anima (in fact the idea that you can somehow introduce balance into the game at this point quite amuses me), so I can't really comment on that. I was skeptical of the value of such systems, but the findings roughly mirror those of my own group, that 'tech' types are significantly more powerful than 'genetic' ones, so it may have some value. For fantasy, the points based approach clearly has less relevance. Wizards are not weak in Anima, by any stretch of the imagination, and neither are Mentalists. Like in nearly all RPGs, mystical types quickly leave the warriors- and especially the skill users- in the dust.

 

Some smaller things, 'Physical Potential' no longer exists, and the character example, Elric, is a Mary Sue. Mechanically, you cannot put 1 rank into a secondary skill, they must at least start with 5, and if you put no points into the skill you receive a -30 penalty to the skill used.

 

 



#28 Bleakheart26

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

I'm only so familiar with the Exel commands so to do some fancy editing of it is a little Beyond Me. There were somethings that I couldn't code in the excel sheet like the Secondary skills =0 then -30 to the total. Mostly the sheet is like a quick reference and build of a custom class.  I mentioned how I wanted to mesh both the Fantasy and Science back around post 13.  There is another section in this Anima:Beyond fantasy forum where someone did some ground work in order to tweek base classes. (Referencing Forum:http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=85&efcid=46&efidt=675185 )  So I took that idea an ran with it.  Even if this is mostly for use in my game, I could imagen that someone some where MIGHT want to do something similar. However I also wanted to keep the spirit of the beyond Science system becouse I liked how it's looking. So Between the two I tried to Combine as much of it where I could. For example, in my game what will eventually happen is a slow transition into Beyond Science Game Rules (like: armor, damage barrier, ranged weapons). To start the characters have all beyond fantasy stuff so I will use the beyond fantasy Rules. As & if they get armor and or weapons then anything concerning those I will shift to beyond science rules. 

     I know that you took all the fantasy Supernatural and psychic stuff out. But as I said it will be a transition in where at a given point in time the players will be free to buy technology skills and make the shift. While In part I agree with them costing a lot if you buy it in for a class, but in at least this game I'm running I don't want it to be impossable for them to do something.  I am going to play it out in my game that in heaven (where the beyond science is basicly located) there are people that have one, some or  BOTH systems. The reason why I chose to do this is because in the core book it takes of earthly and heavenly things. And around page 253, where it talks of  "The Technomagic" it starts off saying "All the Powers in the Shadow have mastery over science that escape our understanding."  Now my idea taken from that area of the core book takes me to YOUR design of a Future science system. I absolutely LOVE the possabilitys and story design that can go into something like that.  Of course I will play it out that some heavenly hosts specialize in one more than the other, while others blend a little. That way there is variety and leaves open some plot-twists. I do very much thank you for your insight into the science system. With out it I would have to completely adhock my desire to run a story like this and it wouldn't have the same impact.

    Ballance I expect will be an ongoing thing I think. And I imagen that useing a class editing thing like this could completely throw any such notion of balance right out the window when trying to have say a lvl 1 vs lvl 1 edited class. However I intend to do whatever I can to both make sure the playing of the story is both fun and not completely broken. So I am trying to work extencively with the players to make sure the class they play is fun, exactly what they want, and eledgible for future development. I also have no hesitation about letting them walk into an ambush, and I will not pull punches when it comes to plot difficulty. Becaouse there are few PC's I also wanted to make sure they were not too week for what is planed. I expect that my ability to work the story on the fly will be as important as trying to keep the pc intentionally ballance when the time is right, and unballanced when it is also right.

   Oh Elric was listed because I think it was his/her (Elric the profile) post that detailed most of the "Class creation" stuff, in that forum. So I wanted to recognize where I got that source information from.  Where does it read you have to buy skills in sets of 5? I haven't seen that anywhere? However looking at the sample classes in the back of the book I see they all have skills in sets of 5….   So it's something I shouldn't let people do?….  

     Changing what coding is there is not something I'd find easy but if someone knows how to created the logic in excel's language then I'll do what I can to clean it up. I intended for the sheet to be changeable. In other words if you buy down one skill with "custom classes" then you could facter that in on the sheet. One thing that the character creatiors are good at is generic classes. Nothing modified or changeable. I wanted to make something you could change. SO I did what I could. Ideally first page did most of the math in keeping track of this mish mech of systems and the second page is where you could put in any value that could be changed with dp cost, and how much dp is spent. As well as keep track of bonuses that you would get every level. /shrug   Guess it wasn't as clear as I hoped….



#29 Bleakheart26

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:14 PM

  Ok, The Custom class area has been cleaned up, with a little help guide writen in. So hopefully it is detailed enough to look over see what I did, and then anyone could do that to make their own. After going back over the skills area I found a bunch of the formulas were linked to my test sheet. So I'm very sorry for any trouble on that. I really thought I had it ready to be tested on. So Now with those two areas in a functionable state, I emplore you once more if you have time please look it over and see if it is something you or anyone you know Might like to use.  I deleted the old file and reposted the repaired file in this link…  again sorry if i'm not very effective at presenting something like this.

http://www.mediafire...alq4936gqlt9q  

I hope this is works, and is something that can be used. TY.



#30 Bleakheart26

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:33 PM

Ok… I've done vlookup tables so it can include movment speed, health, stat bonuses, fatigue, base magic, psy, ki. done up some code where anything that don't have at least 1 point in a skill gets a -30 to it. And for user friendly-ness tried to make sure you should only have to enter something 1 time inorder for it to be used on the rest of the document.  This sheet looks only like a shadow of what it did and i'm hoping it is VERY user friendly. I did keep the colors red for neeeded input, orange for other input like DP spent and the like. The only area I'm not certain with is the beyond science. I'm hoping the Class points are close enough to work. Skills now include all magical, ki, along with the future and technelogical from beyond science.  if there is any errors please let me know. I can't fix formula errors if I don't know they are there. to top it off there is even an additional area for non-primary/supernatural/psychic/technological dp, like that gained from blood of the beast. Everything should be totaled in correct areas and should NOW have a very through help explination if you have any trouble. I also thank my friend Zero for helping me with vlookup tables and for troubleshooting some areas that had formula errors.

Linked it up here.    http://www.mediafire...yy8gy589r37alyw



#31 Black-Fox

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:41 PM

Honestly the sheet has far too much colour in it, which makes it down right painful to read. My suggestion is to make it mostly white and have the cells to be filled in with a single light colour. And if you really feel the need to colour code large sections of cells then make them light, soft colours so that it is easy on the eyes, not dark, heavy colours.

 

That is just from having a brief look at it and obviously regarding the aesthetics of the sheet. As for the workings if it I honestly have tried it out too much not am I likely too as I have my own spreadsheet based character generator that I have already spent hundreds of hours on over the past few years, bit I thought I would at least give you some advice of the aesthetics of the sheet.






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