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#21 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:29 PM

I don''t disagree with that actually. There are a lot of things that I''d take from Black Crusade (and, by extension, Only War) and apply to the other three games, especially Deathwatch, where getting 100 or lower To Hit (or even better) isn''t hard.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#22 WittyDroog

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

 People need to quit saying "Buying the same rules over and over" because they''re not the same rules. Black Crusade as has been mentioned numerous times throughout the FFG forums is the evolutionary descendant of Dark Heresy (Which in itself is an evolutionary descendant of the Specialist Game "Inquisitor" which is an evolutionary descendant of WarHammer Fantasy Roleplay). Yes they are very similar but if people are stripping the rules out of Black Crusade to slap into other games as is wildly popular then it''s not really a verbatim copy of prior games.

In response to the "two book" issue here''s my perspective. Having a single core rulebook that has supplements works fine. It works for Dungeons and Dragons, it works for WFRP, it works for many other games. The difference, however, between that concept and the concept of the 40k ruleset is that is Core book of these games is a self-contained game. Yes it contains all the rules but it also contains enough material to actually play the game without the need for any other book. As I mentioned earlier you could play Dungeons and Dragons with just the Player''s Handbook, sure you lack premade monsters and some of the more flavorful items and classes, but it has everything you need to actually play the game and honestly play any flavor of the game.

If this 40k series was to follow such an example then the same condition would need to apply, that you could play the game with only the core rulebook. But what would you decide to be representation of the core rulebook► Dark Heresy certainly seems to be the top pick as it was the first, but what if people don''t want to bother at all with playing Throne Agents and would rather jump right ahead into playing big and powerful Space Marines► Because the games have a distinctive design philosophy and play style it really makes the idea of a "Player''s Handbook" awkward unless you would include all the pieces needed to make all those playstyles. You certainly could include all the classes, races, and specialties into this core book, but what about when Eldar or whatever are release and people want to play a game revolving around them► You would need to buy two books. H2SO4 hit the nail on the head, it would require FFG to plan everything out ahead of time. Sure I figure WotC does that but their product base is lot more focused in development and they have Hasbro''s coin to spend.

The reason it works so well for games like D&D and WHFP is that the races can easily be mixed and accomodate what the group wants to do. But with this the distinct playstyles interfere with the effectiveness of a unified core rulebook.

 

Also, I really don''t want to throw out the "stop being poor bastards" argument but given the rate these books are released it''s hardly a burden of investment. At its highest these books are $60 and released every few months► I spend a whole lot more on other games and publishers than that. But again that''s not really a "point" I''m claiming, because I know it''s a bad argument, I''m just saying it''s not breaking my wallet.



#23 Radwraith

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:01 PM

Why is it people will by "Mass effect 3" (Which is a great game by the way!) or Call of duty modern warfare 3, each costing $60.00 (New) and not ***** but when FFG produces OW which is arguably the setting the player base has wanted from the beginning, These people will accuse them of some "scam" to "rob" people of their cherished dough► Most Xbox or PS3 games these days are simply reskins of older games! It''s the same software coding with a few adjustments that the designers thought might work better! Sound familiar► I have no problem with FFG''s business model! I often wish the stuff would come out faster! BTW: That doesn''t make me an FFG fanboy (Read ass-kisser) it simply means that I have enjoyed their product thus far and am looking forward to the newest addition!



#24 Radwraith

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:01 PM

Why is it people will by "Mass effect 3" (Which is a great game by the way!) or Call of duty modern warfare 3, each costing $60.00 (New) and not ***** but when FFG produces OW which is arguably the setting the player base has wanted from the beginning, These people will accuse them of some "scam" to "rob" people of their cherished dough► Most Xbox or PS3 games these days are simply reskins of older games! It''s the same software coding with a few adjustments that the designers thought might work better! Sound familiar► I have no problem with FFG''s business model! I often wish the stuff would come out faster! BTW: That doesn''t make me an FFG fanboy (Read ass-kisser) it simply means that I have enjoyed their product thus far and am looking forward to the newest addition!



#25 bmaynard

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 08:40 AM

I see some folks saying "Don't like it, Don't buy it." That's a valid point. To the cost concerns, I see some folks countering (Radwraith above me even) with the cost of video games. "I'm buying the same rules over and over" has been responded to by pointing out that in each subsequent setting, those rules have been revised and improved upon. All interesting points and counterpoints.

The part that grinds my gears, (To borrow a segment from Peter Griffin) is that this setting/offering doesn't appear to be significantly different enough from previous offerings to warrant the attention it is receiving. To clarify further, (or muddle things up with another analogy even) what I'm saying is that this book seems like a bit more of the same, painting over the fence in a new color, or reskinning the game as opposed to building more fence or growing the brand as it were.

I'd like to have seen the writers, developers, playtesters, etc… focus their energies/monies/time on bringing to life more of the galaxy at large and less of the Imperium, re-hashed. Does that mean I want to see a tyranid or necron book, no I think they make better bad guys. However, the Orks and the Tau (and yes, maybe even the eldar to you pointy-eared space-elf freaks out there) could be fleshed out and expanded upon more. I think an all ork system would be huge amounts of fun. Replace Infamy with TEEF and everyone's ballistic skill is crap, but, you could have weird boys and minders and grots and herders and meks and if beggars were horses, something about wishes.

I understand that the Only War system is a separate entity from DH, RT, DW and BC. I understand that it is where FFG and GW chose to spend that R&D money. Does that mean I have to be happy about it? Of course not, and this being the internet, I'm here to tell all of you guys how sad it makes me and Eeyore to be offered another Imperium-centric game. =( There, I said it.

To the folks who're looking forward to this game, grats, I hope you like it. To FFG, here's hoping this game's a success for you and that sometime in the future you'll be writing the "Greater Good", or "Bashin' Fings" books I'd like to see.

 



#26 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 05:40 AM

bmaynard said:

The part that grinds my gears, (To borrow a segment from Peter Griffin) is that this setting/offering doesn't appear to be significantly different enough from previous offerings to warrant the attention it is receiving. To clarify further, (or muddle things up with another analogy even) what I'm saying is that this book seems like a bit more of the same, painting over the fence in a new color, or reskinning the game as opposed to building more fence or growing the brand as it were.


And I'd love to know what you're basing this on?

1. You don't know what the game's setting is.
2. None of the other games are geared around RP in an armed forces (DW are special forces, RT is about flying around in ships exploring and making money, BC is the logical 'evil' side of that coin, and DH is about investigation).

So what constitutes 'significant' difference, when it's a game that mirrors none of the others?

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#27 bmaynard

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

It looks like you're referring to setting in a geographical sense. I'm not talking Jericho reach, etc. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word for it, but I'm referring to the socio-political setting. (i.e. the Imperium.)

So yes, I do know what that setting is. Did you even read the rest of my post, or did you just decide, "ah ha, another ignorant hater, I shall shout him down with my brilliant rhetoric!"

From the product announcement:

"players take on the roles of soldiers in the Imperial Guard, the galaxy-spanning armies of the God-Emperor. Fully compatible with FFG’s other Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay titles, this comprehensive game system explores a previously unseen side of life in the Imperium of Man."

As I pointed out in the paragraph following the one you quoted, I'm getting tired of the imperium-centric 40k systems. I'd like to see something from the xenos view, wherein the humans are in the monstrous creatures book.

To answer your number 2 point, THAT is the difference I am seeking. Less Imperium, more rest of the galaxy. Hell, gimme a game with the demiurg or the hrud as the primary focus, I just don't want to see the humans at center stage in this, the fifth offering from the 40k IP. A rich and varied IP full of numerous races, not just humans.

I posted, not to piss and moan about the game. Hell, I own the core book for each of the others and will most likely pick this one up as well. In a thread of people with complaints regarding the game, I wanted to voice mine as I hadn't seen it in the vain hopes that someone at FFG reads these forums and maybe somewhere Ork: The RPG is being discussed as having at least one or two people interested in playing it.

the tl;dr version of all of that:

If this was a Star Trek RPG and FFG had put out a book for the original series, one for Next Gen, one for Voyager and one for Deep Space 9, and were just announcing the upcoming Enterprise system, I'd be the guy asking, "When do I get the Klingon Empire game?"

 



#28 flyboy0106

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:51 AM

I think the one corebook and supps to augment is a great ideal, but it has been done and IMO it failed. Example NWOD although I love the game, it was hard to convence a new player to buy the core book and the supp to go with it.  NWod corebook 25, vampire book 40 so this comes out to be 65 which would mean it would cost more for a new player to get started. In my experince demoing both games I have seen more people get up from the table and buy a 40k corebook then I ever have seen them buy a core/supp set. The point is, when I start a game with a new player and he/she startes to like it, they don't have to feel like they are getting taken to the cleaners to get started, one book one price your done. Lets face it, it's a business and busness is about growth and getting a bigger customer base and I have seen this work better with this method of publishing. FFG is catering to new players not to us hardcore games, they want more people playing. There are people out there that may not like the other lines so this way they can pick there favorite flavor start with and not feel like they are being taken. I wonder if the 60 dollar price tag is set to mirror that of a video game?



#29 flyboy0106

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:04 AM

On another note, I was disapointed it was IG, I really wanted an ORK book 



#30 panzer-attack

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

I'm really looking forward to Only War and will definitely be getting it.  If it were just a supplement for one of the existing games there'd be much less chance of me buying it.  it's going to need a completely different vibe to it from the other 40K games and I don't think a supplement would do it justice. 



#31 Face Eater

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

There's no reason to assume that playing Xeno's isn't going to happen. Only War was the next book because it was scheduled to be the next supplement to Dark Heresy. Who know's what they were actually planning after that.



#32 bmaynard

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 04:43 AM

See, we're not assuming it won't happen, we're complaining that it isn't happening now. Instant Gratification, Rarr!!!

See, the difference?

Now, that being said, I'm just hoping the abhumans are in the IG book. Who wouldn't want to play an A-Team style Ogryn squad? Bonehead squad leader = Hannibal, sounds good, right?



#33 Sister Callidia

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 05:21 AM

Can I say Dan Abnett Woott?

 

Was I surprised to learn that the IG book ended up with a new and improved system? Yes I was. But if you consider that so many people claim that the DH rules could use some upgrading and the probable fact that there are undoubtly new non existing engine features makes it a valid choice.

There is also the benefit of inciting new players to the game who are just interested in playing the infantry man and don't need all those DH rules to begin with.



#34 flyboy0106

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:10 AM

That would be soooo cool to play an Ogryn!!!



#35 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

I am looking forward to Only War. But I hope it is more compatible with other games in the 40K line then previous outings have been (hoping more with Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader actually).

I was stoked for it when it was a DH Supplement, pissed when it became its own game (GenCon 2012 is not late summer 2011). I am also disappointed that it is another RPG in itself. But I can deal with that as I like the subject matter. I have read most of the IG novels and play IG myself, so I am really excited for this product.

I just hope it has good support and fast.

But I hope Dark Heresy gets a second edition that only tweaks it a bit (updated combat rules, bumps the power level from 400XP at start to 1000XP and such).

I have a feeling we will get a generic 40K RPG game soon. I imagine the contract between FFG and GW is about up (its almost been 5 years, cant imagine it being longer then that) and it will either be renewed or ended and if it is ending FFG will release as much material as it can to make money, including turning supplements into full fledged RPGs.



#36 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:46 PM

The whole contract deal was renewed a while ago. That's when they went beyond the originally slated 3 RPG's.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#37 Blood Pact

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:24 PM

H.B.M.C. said:

The whole contract deal was renewed a while ago. That's when they went beyond the originally slated 3 RPG's.

BYE

I just have to say, yay!



#38 Warboss Krag

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:38 PM

As a matter of note, I am currently running a 40K RPG campaign where I am using all of the books, in one way or another, for my game. You see, while it's entirely okay to segment the vast background of the millieu into discreet areas, it does sort of lose some of the multi-facted splendor that attracted me to the millieu in the first place, back with the original Rogue Trader. I have two players: One is playing a straight Dark Heresy psyker, the other is playing a character who couldn't really defined by one of the static character level-up systems, so I allow him to use basic Black Crusade character rules, without the Chaosy bits, and allowing skill and talent imports from other books, as appropriate. Since I ride herd on the process, it's not broken (although he does complain about the high cost of almost everything; I make him pay Unaligned Chaos costs).

They can easily work together, or apart. The problems that I encounter is a lack of revamps of the older material in light of the improvements made in the newer material.






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