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Only War versus *Anything* Else? No ELDAR book...?


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#81 Plushy

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:51 PM

 Good arguments can be made for many xeno games

 

Craftworld Eldar is interesting, with clear paths for character advancement (Warrior, Seer, Outcast, plus the more obscure, like Dreamer) and a solid way of getting characters together (sharing a home craftworld.) It suffers from the same restriction as Only War in that the PCs would likely share a homeworld, but there is a wide array of character concepts and specialties.

The Tau Empire is the new kid on the block, naive and optimistic. A multitude of homeworlds (the various Septs) and a wide array of options (Fire/Air/Water/Earth castes, Kroot/Vespid/Demiurg/Human/Tarellian auxilleries) make characters stand out. Plenty of weapon variety available. You can have fun with the Eldar worldview (everyone is a potential ally, no idea what daemons are, etc.) and have a sort of Dark Heresy from the other side.

Dark Eldar are organized into a wide variety of organizations (Kabals, Wych Cults, Haemonculi covens) and have plenty of class concepts (Kabalite Warriors, Wyches, Incubi, Haemonculi, Hellions… Reavers, Scourges, Wracks…) A clear motivation makes campaigns easy but varied (Kabal dominance and a need for slaves) and the chance to play the bad guys is pretty rad.

Eldar Harlequins fight Chaos, have specialized classes, and are an under-explored niche in 40k. They do suffer from a lack of diversity, but that could be easily remedied by clever writers or players.

Orks are the stereotypical D&D main characters, fighting for fun and profit. I think they could get a full game.

Necrons are a personal favorite of mine for the idea of a high-level game. A disgraced Lord and his retinue (Cryptek, Lychguard, Deathmark, Praetorian) set out to carve their own dynasty. Could be neat.

 

 

Really, anything but the Imperium (although a new Acension could be great) would be rad.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#82 Blood Pact

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:14 AM

Yeah yeah, and the folks over at Lustria-Online are really looking forward to being able to field PACKS of Carnosaurs (the T-Rex)…

Why do I gotta be the one to always be the buzzkill and inject some rational thought in to everyone's idle musing? If people kept their expectations more reasonable, they'd be dissapointed a whole lot less, and there'd probably be a lot less rage and drama on the forums too.

In short, don't shed to many tears when you never get playable Necrons.

And Tau… they'll never do Tau because the fanbase is too split. Half the people think they're shining paragons in a universe of gothic darkness. And the other half think they're just as bad as all the rest, that they brainwashed the Vespid, oppress anyone who doesn't tow their line about the Greater Good, and aren't above concentration camps and forced sterilization of rebellious populations.



#83 Face Eater

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:48 AM

Blood Pact said:

And Tau… they'll never do Tau because the fanbase is too split. Half the people think they're shining paragons in a universe of gothic darkness. And the other half think they're just as bad as all the rest, that they brainwashed the Vespid, oppress anyone who doesn't tow their line about the Greater Good, and aren't above concentration camps and forced sterilization of rebellious populations.

Why's that go to be a problem. From the PC's point of view it's going to be the same, either the PC's are naive and shocked by the unfolding conspiracy as they uncover it or they are brutal cogs in the vicious machine that the liberal and media friendly elements of the greater good are trying to keep under wraps. In short, politics, it's in lots of games.

Of course, I doubt the Tau fan-base is large enough to warrant it's own game, at least not before the Eldar or even Ork fans. But maybe that's just perception, prove me wrong.



#84 kwinland

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:19 AM

Baiting sarcasm aside, you bring up several points. :)

I would argue that FFG (or any company) doesn't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel or offer something completely new and paradigm-shifting - they simply have to offer a "good" game that either HAS or WILL GENERATE fan interest. 

For example, the Eldar have a huge fan base (both in the RPG and Tabletop game).  They can fit in with established material (i.e. they can adventure in Human space, interact with the Imperium to some degree, etc), and the potential new material would service fans not directly interested in playing the Eldar, as the source material, fiction, and adventures could still interest or be useful to DH/RT/DW/BC players.  A harlequin campiagn would be interesting, but I would argue WAY too narrow to warrant a core game - a supplement *perhaps*.  The Harlequins with the most potential for "adventuring" (semi-independent exploration, conflict, and interaction with long-term potential narratives) would be Solos.

With other Xenos, you really WOULD have to have a completely different paradigm for gaming.  Orks, Tau, and the rest cannot interact with all of the previously published source material except in the most simplistic terms (conflict, raids, and whatnot).  The resulting game would be entirely based on the culture and space of that race, which is both a gamble and limits the cross-over with the rest of the 40K line.  VERY risky, and there is nothing to suggest sales potential here.

Cheers,

Ken

 

Blood Pact said:

Ya know… lemme just bring over the post I made in one of those ******* retarded "Where's the Xenos?" threads that got spammed accross every forum. It's perfectly relevant right here, and there's no need to retype everything for the sake of being fancy.

 

Blood Pact said:


Thankyou both. But AlphaChaos, you didn't really answer the question, just said you don't like playing humans, and that you think Tau would be a good choice. Wolf, you came a lot closer tot he mark, but what you basically described is "Dark Heresy with Eldar".

If FFG is going to make an entirely new game, with Xenos, they're not going to be stupid about it if they want longterm viability as a product. They're not going to rely entirely on the fact that you're playing whatever to sell it. It's gotta be new, it's gotta be at least kinda original, in comparison to the other lines already out (and there are far fewer similarities between any two of the game-lines currently out, than there are similarities.. aside from 4/5 being Imperium focused). It's not enough that people want a Xenos game, because if it doesn't have more to it than just playing Xenos, the enthusiasm is going to dry up really fast. And you've certainly both seen how the forums can quickly turn in to a pack of bitching, whining, little ingrates. SignoftheSerpent would be leading them all, screaming about how we've been cheated yet again, because the game is basically (like I've been saying) just "Deathwatch with Crisis Suits", or whatever.

So far the only idea that really comes close to hitting the nail is a Harlequin game.
 

 



#85 Blackjack Rackham

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:27 AM

'Lo there.

In spite of whatever the GW officials may insist regarding the "inscrutability" of the Eldar, their personalities seem pretty understandable to me. As of the Eldar 4th edition rulebook, its been stated that the Eldar brain is able to experience and process thoughts and emotions at a far greater depth and speed than a human brain. As such they can imagine incredible possibilities, experience the most extreme emotions, and switch between them with lightnight speed. So strong are the Eldar's emotions, they can literally lose themselves in them, dying from depression or becoming rage filled mad-dog killers.

By today's the standards, every Eldar would be diagnosed with a combination of bi-polarism and extreme personality disorder. Unfortunately for the Eldar, their inability filter and reign in their own impulses resulted in the destruction of their civilization and the birth of Slaanesh. As a direct result of this, the Craftworld Eldar concocted the notion of rigid, defined paths to focus their excessive personality traits and keep them from spinning out of control. The Exodites chose to forsake technology and progress as a culture and deliberately altered their societies to spend most of its time surviing under simple and phsyically demanding circumstances; think Amish elves, only they ride dinosaurs instead of horses.

However, even the Dark Eldar found certain restrictions placed on their society. Their proximitity to the true warp and Slaanesh forced them to forsake psychic disciplines, which has probably been a boon to them in the long run. Also, the realization that they need each other to survive in an extremely unfriendly universe has forced them to evolve a (very) interesting system of favors and prestige to keep them from slaughtering each other wholesale.

So, I think that an Eldar can be role-played with a bit of practice. GM fluff and fiction has been pretty consistent about portraying the Eldar as obsessive compulsives prone to wild moodswings. In fact, this tendency towards obsession could even be represented by the insanity points track, imposing drawbacks in some areas while providing bonuses in others as the Eldar becomes more hyper-focused and stuck in a certain direction.

In summary, I think the Eldar would be a blast to roleplay.



#86 Plushy

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:43 AM

  I have to throw some evidence in the face of people who say Eldar would be un-playable.

 

I just got Path of the Warrior and am greatly enjoying reading it. Given the dubious nature of canon within Black Library works, this must all be taken with a pinch of salt, but the book describes fairly human emotions. The Eldar are gifted with great willpower, but also have very strong emotions and lead their own lives. They are very shifting in who they are, encouraged to change Paths often and change who they are with that. All in all, they are quite different than humans… but the book was written by a human.

I feel like they are very playable. The Eldar and the Tau are the two xenos races with the most peaceful human interaction, but I think the Eldar offer a much richer playing experience.

 

My quiet love for Dark Eldar and Necrons aside, I think that our friends on the Craftworlds are the most deserving of a big book. And if they do, they'd better have playable Warp Spiders ;)


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#87 Seeten

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:55 AM

As a long time Eldar player, I've long loved my Aspect Warriors.

It would be pretty awesome to be able to choose between Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions, Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Dire Avengers and Shadow Spectres, wouldnt it? Wow.

I'm excited just thinking about it.



#88 kwinland

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:04 AM

Plushy said:

  I have to throw some evidence in the face of people who say Eldar would be un-playable.

 

I just got Path of the Warrior and am greatly enjoying reading it. Given the dubious nature of canon within Black Library works, this must all be taken with a pinch of salt, but the book describes fairly human emotions. The Eldar are gifted with great willpower, but also have very strong emotions and lead their own lives. They are very shifting in who they are, encouraged to change Paths often and change who they are with that. All in all, they are quite different than humans… but the book was written by a human.

I feel like they are very playable. The Eldar and the Tau are the two xenos races with the most peaceful human interaction, but I think the Eldar offer a much richer playing experience.

 

My quiet love for Dark Eldar and Necrons aside, I think that our friends on the Craftworlds are the most deserving of a big book. And if they do, they'd better have playable Warp Spiders ;)

Plushy said:

  I have to throw some evidence in the face of people who say Eldar would be un-playable.

I just got Path of the Warrior and am greatly enjoying reading it. Given the dubious nature of canon within Black Library works, this must all be taken with a pinch of salt, but the book describes fairly human emotions. The Eldar are gifted with great willpower, but also have very strong emotions and lead their own lives. They are very shifting in who they are, encouraged to change Paths often and change who they are with that. All in all, they are quite different than humans… but the book was written by a human.

I feel like they are very playable. The Eldar and the Tau are the two xenos races with the most peaceful human interaction, but I think the Eldar offer a much richer playing experience.

My quiet love for Dark Eldar and Necrons aside, I think that our friends on the Craftworlds are the most deserving of a big book. And if they do, they'd better have playable Warp Spiders ;)

Howdy!

The Eldar are no more "unplayable" than Elves in Pathfinder/D&D, Zhodani in Traveller, etc.  The diversity and richness of their background in the 40K universe would allow for numerous expansions (Aspects, paths, crafts, 3-6 adventures, the obligatory bestiary, etc).  This is true ESPECIALLY if FFG is making the Dark Eldar a player options - that race has less background and is MORE restrictive in many RPG environments (but still playable).

It has been argued (and I agree) that many aspects of the Eldar are not suitable for "traditional" RPG interest and integration with the other 40K campaigns.  The previously published BL novels and fluff would readily support Eldar corsairs, Outcasts, and Harlequins as player characters, with varying degrees of available interaction with Human space and the other 40K support books.  However, in an all-Eldar campaign, anything goes.

A possible publishing scenario?

*Eldar core book - With basic paths (Outcast, Guardian, Warlock, Crafter, Corsair, etc) and basic fluff.  FFG could wither choose an existing Craftworld or make one up (close to one of the previously-published regions of space).  The "new" sector does NOT have to be a traditional sector of space, but a series of webway gates linking Craftworlds, Maidenworlds, Human-occupied planets, and "new" lands.  This way you could use worlds from all over the sectors of space published in DH, RT, and DW, but with a different spin.

*Eldar Bestiary - A no-brainer.

*Eldar adventure cycle - One or two trilogies of adventures, with all of the usual shiney parts.

*Eldar Companion - more career paths (Aspect Warriors, etc).

*Eldar Ascendant  - MORE career paths, equipment, and advanced paths (hello Farseer, Harlequin Shadowseers and Troupe Masters, blahblah).

*Craftworld X - The sourcebook on the Craftworld introduced in the core book.

*Maidenworld Y - A sourcebook on an Exodite world for players.

*Dark Eldar - A sourcebook on the Eldar's dark kin, with FULL rules to flesh them out as a player race.

…And so on.

Cheers,

Ken



#89 Blood Pact

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:24 PM

Face Eater said:

Blood Pact said:

 

And Tau… they'll never do Tau because the fanbase is too split. Half the people think they're shining paragons in a universe of gothic darkness. And the other half think they're just as bad as all the rest, that they brainwashed the Vespid, oppress anyone who doesn't tow their line about the Greater Good, and aren't above concentration camps and forced sterilization of rebellious populations.

 

 

Why's that go to be a problem. From the PC's point of view it's going to be the same, either the PC's are naive and shocked by the unfolding conspiracy as they uncover it or they are brutal cogs in the vicious machine that the liberal and media friendly elements of the greater good are trying to keep under wraps. In short, politics, it's in lots of games.

Of course, I doubt the Tau fan-base is large enough to warrant it's own game, at least not before the Eldar or even Ork fans. But maybe that's just perception, prove me wrong.

Because not every word of the books are intended to be taken as a subjective point of view. And it's the fanbase that's split, not the characters, with mostly Tau fans and some others favouring the noble paragon idea, with a more varied group of others determined that they're not better just because they'll sometimes ask nicely when they're annexing you. And when it comes to presenting those objective facts, you're going to piss off one group or the other.

And in either of the Tau or Eldar games, the question of player choice, and just plain free will can come in to play. This little Far Seer trouble-shooting squad is sent off to ensure a predicted future comes to pass (again, sounds a lot like Dark Heresy, or Deathwatch if the game plays more fighting oriented). So.. that's it, eh? I'm all with the adventures I play having a "mission", some goal I'm ordered to perform, but when it's backed up by some prosaic prophecy about how it'll help the Eldar race, I'm hesistant to say it's railroading, but it sounds awfully close. I like a little bit more personal freedom there, as both DW and DH (OW is too new to say) leave a lot of leeway in the hands of the players. They're not generally told that, "this is specifically what you have to acomplish to give humanity (the Eldar) this beneficial future". And on the Tau's side of things, there's the Ethereals, who have the power to command the other Castes with absolute obedience. Both are tricky propositions.

And while the gameplay doesn't need to be groundbreaking, or unique, it'd help if the style of the gameplay didn't feel like a carbon-copy of an existing game. Because at that point, you're relying merely on the popularity of the race in question. About the only 40K army you could rely on that with is the Space Marines, as they've always been the flagship of the line, and the most iconic symbol of 40K. Eldar maybe, but I honestly think you couldn't do it properly as all one game. If the default is Craftworld, and the Dark Eldar get a book full of rules for playing them, and other goodies… Well, if they're an expansion to the main line, books just for the Dark Eldar will have a much lower priority than most others, and FFG can only print so much at a time.



#90 Seeten

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

[ADMIN: Edited for language.]

Well, to be fair, I think half the existing games are pure ***** and shouldnt have been done, and arent worth the paper they are printed on, so I guess you're feeling that Eldar might duplicate some vague feeling that you might already get from one of those existing games…*shrug*

Dark Heresy itself, I thought was pure garbage.  Anything duplicating it, but with a better and more interesting race, and less useless protagonists gets my vote as an upgrade, to take one example.



#91 The_Shaman

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:13 AM

I think regular eldar could work decently on a RT power level, mechanically speaking. A few +5s, a few -5s, unnatural agility, -1 fate point et cetera. Sure, they'd be way above average humans like the DH starting characters, but in Rogue Trader the trader and his retinue are hardly average.

 

From roleplaying perspective, we've already had death cult assassins, space marines, orks and kroot, I doubt an eldar ranger would be that much more of a challenge. Yes, by our modern standards they'd be bipolar, sociopathic ***** - or, in other words, prime PC material :) .



#92 Unholy_Ravager

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:29 AM

 Remember, the job title of most D&D PCs is "Murdering Hobo".



#93 Plushy

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 12:57 PM

 Regardless of what we get next, my Dark Eldar game is happening.

 

A young Archon and his fledgling kabal versus the world. Profit Factor measured in slaves. It'll be so grand.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#94 kwinland

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Unholy_Ravager said:

 Remember, the job title of most D&D PCs is "Murdering Hobo".

Hehehehe…. SO true!

Ken



#95 Morangias

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:03 AM

Plushy said:

 Regardless of what we get next, my Dark Eldar game is happening.

 

A young Archon and his fledgling kabal versus the world. Profit Factor measured in slaves. It'll be so grand.

I wish I could play it!


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#96 Seeten

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:25 AM

Run it online, Plushy and I'm in!



#97 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:52 AM

 Who gives a zog 'bout da stoopid panzies!? Wot about da Orks!


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#98 Cynical Cat

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 12:56 AM

One issue is that a game isn't just a faction, it's a game.  So stating up Craftworld eldar isn't enough, there has to be something those Craftworld eldar would do as a group for a whole campaign.  Which considering the rigid lives and roles of most eldar, doesn't leave many options.  Fortunately there is one giant loophole.

Seers.  Farseers and their ilk see all kinds of potential problems and disasters and if the PCs are talented trouble shooters, then it might be best to send them through a convenient webway portal to investigate/negotiate/shoot in the face said problem before it becomes a threat.  That works.

Harlequins work pretty much for the same reason.  Fighting chaos is their specialty, but their concern is the race as a whole and they interact with the whole race.  That means you could potentially have Exodite, Craftworld, and Dark Eldar PCs and adventures taking place involving any of the three factions.   In addition, the fluff has a whole class of Harlequins (the Mimes-spy/assassin/infiltrators) which would make great PCs but haven't been stated out to the table top.

We already know how a Dark Eldar campaign works-Rogue Trader with the nastiness turned up to 11.

Tau have the problem of being rigid without the easy for the GM to manage transportation system of the Webway and Seers as adventure seeds.  It's still doable, of course, but it shares the Eldar's issue of needing to get the whole group to sign off on playing aliens.  In my experience, PCs are more willing to play Orks or Eldar. 

 

 



#99 psun2

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 11:40 AM

The_Shaman said:

I think regular eldar could work decently on a RT power level, mechanically speaking. A few +5s, a few -5s, unnatural agility, -1 fate point et cetera. Sure, they'd be way above average humans like the DH starting characters, but in Rogue Trader the trader and his retinue are hardly average.

 

From roleplaying perspective, we've already had death cult assassins, space marines, orks and kroot, I doubt an eldar ranger would be that much more of a challenge. Yes, by our modern standards they'd be bipolar, sociopathic ***** - or, in other words, prime PC material :) .

I'm with The Shaman on this one. While I have no great hankering for an Eldar game, as such, I don't see why they can not be incorporated into Rogue Trader as PCs. I mean, an Ork Freebooter is okay for a PC, but not an Eldar Corsair? Really?






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