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Only War versus *Anything* Else? No ELDAR book...?


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#41 Face Eater

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:42 AM

This all has me torn regally. On one hand I would have liked to see only war as source book for DH, I certainly can see a lot of cross over. On the other hand, a huge IG fan I'm glad they are getting full scale love, rather than what they could fit in source book. If it can down to a decision to cut 400 pages of material writen by rabid games designers or to whack on 200 hundred pages of how to play and release it as a core book, I think they made the right descision.

For the Eldar, I hope it's not down to some GW fiat. I'm sure there's plenty of good reasons not too at the moment but I would like to see that eventually. Eldar re the best, most rounded Xeno's species GW have. They've come a long way from their Space Elf roots... well, in design aesthetic and background if not in character.

Love Orks too, there a perfect counter point to all other species. There's a suprising amount of background out there for them and they have a bunch of unique RP options. If a whole game is too risky I'd love to see a Black Crusade supplement to add Ork freeboota characters (or Chaos Orks, there I said it..) or run the whole thing as an Ork game. They've got all the same bases covered as a normal group an easy 6 clan but many tribes (or 7 if you include freeboota) system for character gen.

Maybe they could release Eldar as a source book for RT, concentrate of a corsair crew if life within a Craftworld is too difficult. Seems a bit weird to have an entire different race in a source book when IG get one for themselves but maybe the economics works best that way. Who know's maybe later there'll be a Tau source book for Only War eventually.



#42 The_Shaman

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:54 AM

Dulahan said:

 

Honestly, I'm thinking GW Fiat is probably the real reason we haven't seen them as PCs yet, and the overly antagonistic Gen Con 2011 answer about no Alien Games EVER in 40k RP was just a very undiplomatic answer because they might not be able to admit the stricture of no aliens.

 

 

 

Well, not sure if there's going to be a full game on them, but I'd expect to see some of them in the Rogue Trader game. Most Eldar wanderers would be at around this level of power - not space marines, but not the near-nameless servants of the Inquisition, either. In fact, RT is planning to include Dark Eldar PCs, so the indication is there - though to me it makes little sense to start with dark eldar, of all things. It is probably the race least likely to play around in realspace, what with their soul-leeching problem that all but prevents long-term stays in realspace. The roleplaying implications aren't much better either - to a human, all eldar are inscrutable and capricious, but at least most don't go out of their way to kill you in a particularly painful manner or to drive you past the emotional event horizon to get their metaphysical boner. Those same addictions make you jump through hoops to create a 3D character, too. Oh, X is a dark eldar? Okay, so they kill and torture people in a gruesome fashion, and most likely like it. Why? Because they literally must. So you get most of the problems of having a regular eldar with the party, and then some, and few of the benefits (like that sweet psychic mojo of the psykers or the scouting/infiltration experience of the rangers).

 

From a RP perspective, any xenos should have a completely different perspective to most imperials. Yeah, sure, Eldar are alien - as little as I know about them, they seem to be geared towards behavior we today consider obsessive and sociopathic, and have some pretty weird structures to cope with it. On the other hand, Orks and kroot have value systems that are no less alien, and they made the second or third RT book - the differences there may be less subtle than with eldar, but are certainly there. And let's be honest, I think most players wouldn't dig that far - I imagine a likely thought to be "Screw the socio-political implications of the war persona, I can have a jumpjet walker with two laser chainguns and I want to shoot stuff!"

 

Anywho, it seems FFG doesn't want to commit the resources to an Eldar book for now. Sad, it could be a nice supplement to the RT line. As for Only war, the mechanics can be sounds, but I'm not too keen on the premise. The whole focus on military action somewhat limits the freedom of the roleplaying experience that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader or Black Crusade have. Besides, the Guard's "schtick" on the tabletop game is a mass army, drowning the enemy in men and ordnance. They do this because they must - as most enemies are stronger than a human one-on-one - and because they can, as the Imperium is literally a pan-galactic empire that can draw on incredible resources.



#43 kwinland

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:02 AM

Howdy,

 

It strikes me as odd that 4-5 years into the 40K RPG publication schedule, we have mechanics to generate *Ork* and *Kroot* PCs, but not ELDAR.

 

HUGE missed opportunity.  If they were planning a core game around them, I could understand the delay.  At the VERY least, they could do a RT supp or a section an RT book about Eldar PCs.  The Eldar are VERY popular on the tabletop, and have a popular footprint in the RPG universe (and that's the ONLY question I get at cons and game stores when I talk about 40K role-playing  - "...Do they have the Eldar?").

 

I doubt that it has something to do with the license specifics from GW, but then again who knows....

There are some house rules on the web for Eldar and Dark Eldar, and they are serviceable.  However, my players ended up choosing orthodox characters simply because there is more options and detail published by FFG.  Poop!

Ken



#44 Lazzuu

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:51 AM

I don't see the point in not making an Eldar rpg. I kind of understand that it may be challenging to roleplay an Eldar character, but for many players playing a servant of Chaos is probably equally as challenging. Besides, it would open up some interesting opportunities for gameplay, as stated earlier, seeing the Imperium from an outside perspective etc. Although Only War will probably be extremely entertaining, I don't feel like it has as much to offer.



#45 Psion

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:14 AM

Cifer said:

Personally, I understand the "no playing Eldar" point. The usual argument against it is that no, Eldar are not that alien - after all, it was us that thought them up. And that's right.
However, there's a second side to this: A story can posit there's the greatest and most dangerous creature ever to walk the earth behind that door. As long as the door is never opened, the story author doesn't need to know what the creature looks like. He doesn't even need to be able to imagine it - that was a large point of H.P. Lovecraft's stories, after all. Thus, as long as a certain distance is kept, Eldar can appear within stories. Just like the author, the GM needs to know only about the parts of them that directly impact the players and can shift the rest around to his liking if and when he needs it, altering the game world if necessary to preserve continuity (such as a Farseer predicting a clumsy ambush and only sending a psychic double even if the GM found out about it rather late). However, as a player, I ideally know everything about my character. And "everything" might not be possible while letting the Eldar remain a mysterious race that truly deserves being called Xeno: the alien, that which is not us.

That is a perfectly valid point and a literary device I myself have probably used once or twice.  Though the counter-arguement to this is that we have had stories told from the Eldar perspective.  Novels, a campaign or two in the Dawn of War series... not a great deal but enough to start with.



#46 Blood Pact

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

I think the reason why we don't have an all Eldar game is because there just wouldn't be a game there unless you were to play a Harlequin troupe.

Seriously, hear me out. Craftworld Eldar, the 'default' Eldar, don't lend well to a roleplaying game, they just don't. A Warlock, a Guardian/Musician, a Striking Scorpion, and a Bonesinger, don't all hang out and go on adventures together. Their society is practically caste-based in nature. And yes, the arguement there is that someone could play a Ranger or other sort of Outcast (a corsair of some kind), but at that point you are no longer playing a Craftworld Eldar, so virtually everything with that goes right out the window. Exodites are out because they just all hang around their Maiden World, even if they're not socially restricted. And an entire Dark Eldar game would effectively be "Black Crusade with aliens".

Which leaves us with Harlequins, which out of all the possibilities are the best Eldar to go with. Even from a general roleplaying perspective they're great. A troupe is made up of a diverse group of individuals of varying specialities, which is exactly what a group of PC's is for the most part. They'd probably need to set the starting level the same as Deathwatch, as these are Harlequins we're talking about, and the game would probably have something of a high-level DH sort of feel (except with good mechanics, and with Eldar).



#47 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:32 PM

kwinland said:

It strikes me as odd that 4-5 years into the 40K RPG publication schedule, we have mechanics to generate *Ork* and *Kroot* PCs, but not ELDAR.

HUGE missed opportunity.  If they were planning a core game around them, I could understand the delay.  At the VERY least, they could do a RT supp or a section an RT book about Eldar PCs.  The Eldar are VERY popular on the tabletop, and have a popular footprint in the RPG universe (and that's the ONLY question I get at cons and game stores when I talk about 40K role-playing  - "...Do they have the Eldar?").

 

I doubt that it has something to do with the license specifics from GW, but then again who knows....

There are some house rules on the web for Eldar and Dark Eldar, and they are serviceable.  However, my players ended up choosing orthodox characters simply because there is more options and detail published by FFG.  Poop!

Ken



Well the announcement for Soul Reaver did mentioned that it'd have a full Dark Eldar career in there, so that's something. I'm still surprised that Eldar Ranger wasn't the first career we got for Eldar, but DE is still better than no Eldar career at all.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#48 kwinland

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:25 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

kwinland said:

It strikes me as odd that 4-5 years into the 40K RPG publication schedule, we have mechanics to generate *Ork* and *Kroot* PCs, but not ELDAR.

HUGE missed opportunity.  If they were planning a core game around them, I could understand the delay.  At the VERY least, they could do a RT supp or a section an RT book about Eldar PCs.  The Eldar are VERY popular on the tabletop, and have a popular footprint in the RPG universe (and that's the ONLY question I get at cons and game stores when I talk about 40K role-playing  - "...Do they have the Eldar?").

 

 

I doubt that it has something to do with the license specifics from GW, but then again who knows....

There are some house rules on the web for Eldar and Dark Eldar, and they are serviceable.  However, my players ended up choosing orthodox characters simply because there is more options and detail published by FFG.  Poop!

Ken



Well the announcement for Soul Reaver did mentioned that it'd have a full Dark Eldar career in there, so that's something. I'm still surprised that Eldar Ranger wasn't the first career we got for Eldar, but DE is still better than no Eldar career at all.

BYE

 

 

VERY cool!  I missed that announcement!

 

At least it is a start....

Yeah, Eldar Rangers or Eldar Outcasts would have been the no-brainer.  Harlequins have adventure potential, but usually travel in troupes - GREAT flavour for a coterie-based campaign!

 

Cheers,

Ken



#49 Dark Bunny Lord

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

Yeah the new adventure book might just be the first step in getting such a book. Perhaps we could just get an expansion for all the xenos playable races, like some sort of compendiary for Rogue trader.

Ie more paths, gear, cybernetics, and planets/history for Kroot, Orks, and Dark Eldar.



#50 Blood Pact

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 06:57 AM

Reading more of Path of the Renegade, I'm getting the feeling that Ranger isn't all it's cracked up to be, in regards to integrating them in to a game. It's described in the novel (I know, I know) that it's basically just another Path for the Eldar, as restrictive and confining in its own way, and there largely just to have a place to put the "bored and disafftected".

And now I can't decide whether Corsairs would be the same (in their own way), or whether they'd have actually achieved the goal of freeing themselves from the Parths. But as I said previously, either option leaves them with less incentive to sign up with a bunch of humans, than the inherently ambitious Dark Eldar.



#51 boruta666

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:07 PM

Im with Blood Pact on this one

Playing creature with mindset much more narrow than Space Marine isnt great material for RPG, it was hard to RP space marine for more than 30 gaming sessions, now imagine someone who limit himsealf to just one aspect of warfare or life, also no or as little emotions as possible. 

PS: Eldar corebook should be named "Love can bloom"



#52 Blood Pact

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:32 PM

Having finished the book, I'd say that the Dark Eldar really do seem to actually the best option available for player Characters. Corsairs are also viable, but there's a number of reasons to go eith Dark Eldar over them, such as simple fact that they have a tabletop army (ie: they're actually catering to 40K players, specifically Dark Eldar fans). And thinking of the Rangers in a new light, it always did seem that while they could wander far and wide, it did always seem to be for a greater purpose to the craftworld (collecting lost soulstones, patrolling the Webway and Maiden worlds, etc.).

But getting back to the Dark Eldar, you can count on their mercenary attitude, and that they'll always look out for their own best interests first. Any Rogue Trader worth their Warrant should be able to ensure those interests are the same as their interests. And in threads elsewhere it's been alluded to that the upcoming book is just crammed full of great Dark Eldar info... I'm really hoping there will be stats for Reaver Jetbikes. But I'm personally positive we'll see at least as much as there was for Orks and Kroot. And while some will no doubt ***** and moan about the reprinting of old material, like Dark Eldar weapon stats, I'll be quite glad to have them all condensed in one spot. I'd rather not have to dig through Into the Storm for my Splinter Pistol's stats.



#53 The_Shaman

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:11 AM

Actually, corsairs do have an army list, though it's Forgeworld material (it's in their latest Imperial Armour book). As for the rangers, yes, they will usually take a request from their craftworld or do something that benefits it, but that should hardly come as a surprise. They are eldar, they will likely look out for the interests of other eldar, especially ones they know; I'd expect that they'd be willing to give a hand to exodites or harlequins, too (probably not Dark Eldar though - frakking renegade scum). As for having a narrower viewpoint than Space Marines, that comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Space marines are supposed to have years of indoctrination before they are actually considered true marines, including when they sleep (hypno-doctrination); then the vast majority of their waking time is spent either training or fighting. I doubt the space elf hobo assassins can beat that.

On the other hand, the Eldar already played a significant role in one of the RT adventures, and they missed including a career for them there. Soul Reaver gave as much as could be hoped for under the circumstances. I still wonder if "Only War" wouldn't work much better as a Dark Heresy book, but I imagine the DH rules are starting to show their age. Still, I'm not keen on spending 60 dollars so I have a rule errata... and I've never cared that much about the Guard.

@Boruta 666 - how about "From Ulthwe with love" ? . I'd rather paint it on the side of a D-Cannon, though ;) .



#54 Blood Pact

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

That's the thing that's not covered as much, because the Codex only covers a limited part of it, they really are more limited. They focus on the various 'Paths' as a way of staving off temptation and falling in to the decadance that consumed their race in the past, and while they hardly are required to be aesthetics, they live rigid lives by necessity. A Striking Scorpion, Warlock, Painter, and Ranger might come together to go on 'adventures' from time to time (mainly battles), but they don't move in the same social circles necessary to all just hang out together in their off hours as well, to provide a proper game. And it's infinitely less likely that they'd ride around on a starship with a bunch of mon'keigh. Even if just because the the Dark Eldar 'class' being a Kabalite Warrior meaning the Craftworld equivalent would be a Guardian.

I haven't seen the Imperial Armour book with Corsairs yet, but previous material on them did lead me to believe they'd make a good choice. But like I said, the Dark Eldar simply have more prestige when it comes to the 40K audience that the games are aimed at. I'm sure some folks really would prefer and many more appreciate having the Corsairs fleshed out in the RPG more than they generally have been in the wargame. But I know a lot more people (and so does FFG) would want to play the Dark Eldar. Myself included (me and another player are planning on making a pair of Dark Eldar, and slowly subverting control of the ship). There's a wealth of material to work with, much of it brand spanking new from their awesome Codex, and FFG can tap in to that with the excellent style they've been doing so far with most everything in the game.

Harlequins would make a great game on their own actually. They all have a reason to be together in a group, there's a variety of 'classes' to play, they're something wholly new. It'd probably be about the same XP level as Deathwatch though, but opinion of that is up to personal preference, really. They would also be a good choice for including in to a RT game, except for what I said about XP level. Harlequins are far beyond even the respectable skills of a Kabalite Warrior.



#55 FreezeZ

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:53 AM

Eldar core book would be great but  it is  hard to find good main theme and different careers. As I am reading your posts I see that you are all thinking in similar way. Common citizena of craftworld aren't limited to one path and they are changing them whenever they want to do so. When I am thinking about careers in Eldar core book I see only one solution for different PC. All of them would be on Path of the Outcast but most important difference would be in their past. I would make something similar to RT character creation. They will have option to chose path that they had been following before being an outcast. This solution provide you ability to have warlock, striking scorpion and painter in a team. The biggest problem for such team would be equipment beacouse its is near impossible to find scorpion claw outside the shrine.

Sorry for my English but it's not my native language.



#56 Blood Pact

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:07 AM

If they could change the Paths whenever they wanted, with ease,, they wouldn't need them now would they? Or they just wouldn't be doing their job.

Consider an Exarch. Each of the types of Aspect Warrior are a different Path, emulating a different aspect of the Eldar wargod. And the Exarchs are those Eldar who become too focussed on the Path, to the point where it could be said that that focus consumes them, and they can't break away from it. Other Paths, like those of the Farseer and Warlock (?). are for life as well, albeit a willing choice. Anyway, the Exarchs aren't the only examples of Eldar who have gotten 'trapped' in a Path because they grew too focused on it, just the only ones most of us have experience with because of the game. It can and does happen to others, leaving some Eldar trapped as a painter forever, and such. They're trying to keep their souls from being eaten by a God they birthed through their own decadance and hedonism, they're not going to be that casual about this thing.

While at the same time, the focus on the Path provides many benefits. For one simple example, the fact that a former Striking Scorpion just doesn't have the same fighting skills as one that is currently following the Path, equipment aside. As if being on the Path hones their abilities in the associated field.

Though I think an Outcastes game would work, the Eldar are free from the Path, and able to explore themselves fully during that time. Though I still don't think there's as much potential to be found as with the Dark Eldar.



#57 FreezeZ

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:43 AM

But how many exarch do you have on craftworld? 30? 40?  Earchs are beyond common citizens because they cant put off their warmasks. Farseers ale something like exarchs within ranks of trained psykers. You are focusing on these few cases when you can't act normaly and become trapped on one path. Yes I know that former Striking Scorpion isn't as good as one that is following the path but I wasnt saying that outcast who was within ranks of striking Scorpions is killing machine. I am talking about giving player few benefits. I don't much about Dark Eldar but i always  used to think that they are closer in way of acting and thinking to followers of Khorne or Slaneesh. Dark Eldar are pirates, murderes and slavers who love killing, torturing and causing pain to their victims.



#58 FreezeZ

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:45 AM

Sorry for double post. Please delete.



#59 Blood Pact

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 06:49 PM

FreezeZ said:

I don't much about Dark Eldar but i always used to think that they are closer in way of acting and thinking to followers of Khorne or Slaneesh. Dark Eldar are pirates, murderes and slavers who love killing, torturing and causing pain to their victims.

That is an accurate, but basic, assessment of the Dark Eldar.

However they are only like followers of Khorne and Slaanesh on the surface. Their motivations and desires are very different. By nature they are an ambitious race, and excellence comes easily to them. The Dark Eldar consider themselves the inheritors of the fallen Eldar Empire, and generally continue to live the decadent lifestyles they lived before The Fall. They're like the Imperium in a way, in that they're trying to deny that they've fallen from the greatness they once had.



#60 boruta666

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:19 AM

How many exarchs on craftworld? i bet is something between 5 and 100000. Nobody know how big craftworlds are, they can be just big ships with population around 100k or less or on other hand it could be that craftworlds may house billions of eldar...

Also if u are trapped on certain path, your past before that path becomes blurry, just like some childhood dream. In One of the earlier Eldar dex there is story about exarch, how he forgets all before his current path, he was poet before, driver and many more, now he is just Aspect Warrior, he even forget his friends, lovers and such.

Also exarch is only eldar who don't need his ritual mask/helmet, he is already bound to Khaine.

From my knowledge Dark Eldar and outcasts are the only types with RP potential and sense. Also Dark Eldar have freedom of doing as they want (except being psykers), they can be bad, very bad, or very very bad, still in wh40k that makes them almost good guys. xD

PS: in eldar corebook they must put rules about eldar - human love. As we know 80% of mixed campaigns will turn into twilight in space. (sarcasm filter off)






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