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Only War versus *Anything* Else? No ELDAR book...?


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#21 Gamgee

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:09 AM

And what is with this we HAVE to roleplay elitist bull? Who says we all want to roleplay? Maybe we want to shoot some stuff from the Eldar's point of view. Not every gaming group on earth is into the roleplaying aspect of the game. For goodness sake people.



#22 Santiago

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:17 AM

 I think it was a solid choice. Many people are overwhelmed with the power level of Deathwatch, this is a lower level of play and offers a lot of roleplaying oppertunities including the chance for driving around a Leman Russ or two. 



#23 Darck Child

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:35 AM

kwinland said:

Howdy,

 

Was 'Only War' really necessary?  I had thought that originally this was a DH supp for the Imperial Guard.  Do we really need a whole GAME devoted to the IG?

 

YES, there is a lot of potential for roleplaying and action.  However, you can already play Guard characters and there are facets of the Imperium's military that are fleshed out enough to make gaming in this niche possible.

 

How about an Eldar core game?  There are 8-10 supps that you can derive EASILY from this (Craftworlds, Maiden Worlds, Aspects, Warlocks, pirates, Dark Eldar, adventures, etc), and as of now the Eldar are not playable as PCs.  Over the years I have heard a LOT of interest at the cons and on the boards for Eldar (and other Xenos), but never the Guard....

 

Missed opportunity, IMHO.

 

Ken

Did this really need a new thread?



#24 Psion

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:19 AM

Gamgee said:

And what is with this we HAVE to roleplay elitist bull? Who says we all want to roleplay? Maybe we want to shoot some stuff from the Eldar's point of view. Not every gaming group on earth is into the roleplaying aspect of the game. For goodness sake people.

A perfectly valid point.  Though on the flipside, game books generally don't do well unless they cater to BOTH groups of gamers.  Either way, after post-human super soldiers and individuals who regularly consort with a demonic patheon, the arguement that you can't RP the Eldar, the Tau, or the Ork is kind of... well okay it's not just stupid, it's fracking pants on head retarded.  While as greedy and as amoral as many a Rogue Trader, the folks at Games Workshop are still human unless there is some grand conspiracy I've missed out on.  Human hands designed the units and created the first mold prototypes while human brains came up with the lore for each and every army.  There is no way a space alien can be written in a way that isn't in some way comprehendible to the human mind unless it's written by an actual space alien.  And I seriously doubt GW has an actual Tau, Ork, or Eldar on staff....

So yes, either way this arguement is pointless.  Unfortunately it will likely continue on and on until FFG announces either "The Greater Good" or whatever would make a good title for the Eldar game, the game gets released, and after mulling it over for a few months we decide that it's not that bad or at least suffers from the same criticism as the rest of the 40k RPG franchise.



#25 Dok Martin

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:44 AM

Psion said:

Gamgee said:

 

And what is with this we HAVE to roleplay elitist bull? Who says we all want to roleplay? Maybe we want to shoot some stuff from the Eldar's point of view. Not every gaming group on earth is into the roleplaying aspect of the game. For goodness sake people.

 

 

A perfectly valid point.  Though on the flipside, game books generally don't do well unless they cater to BOTH groups of gamers.  Either way, after post-human super soldiers and individuals who regularly consort with a demonic patheon, the arguement that you can't RP the Eldar, the Tau, or the Ork is kind of... well okay it's not just stupid, it's fracking pants on head retarded.  While as greedy and as amoral as many a Rogue Trader, the folks at Games Workshop are still human unless there is some grand conspiracy I've missed out on.  Human hands designed the units and created the first mold prototypes while human brains came up with the lore for each and every army.  There is no way a space alien can be written in a way that isn't in some way comprehendible to the human mind unless it's written by an actual space alien.  And I seriously doubt GW has an actual Tau, Ork, or Eldar on staff....

So yes, either way this arguement is pointless.  Unfortunately it will likely continue on and on until FFG announces either "The Greater Good" or whatever would make a good title for the Eldar game, the game gets released, and after mulling it over for a few months we decide that it's not that bad or at least suffers from the same criticism as the rest of the 40k RPG franchise.

Yeah, I guess it really depends on how serious you take the whole roleplaying part of roleplaying game. I withdraw my opinion and state the opposite.



#26 Inquisitor Augustus Pike

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

In my opinion, being a 40k fan for a long while now, the Eldar if they ever get a core book, would need a THOROUGH background section. I don't mean just craftworlds or history etc. I mean a comprehensive section on their mindset and how they think. For those players who want to roleplay Eldar, me slightly included, we'd need a really really firm idea as to how different the Eldar from us.(general fluff both new and old), They have the attention spans of a knat at times. Those locked on their path are those who don Aspect Warrior Exarch armor, the Farseers, Autarchs to name a few. An eldar citizen may go on a 100 year bout of being an Aspect warrior, and later get distracted by something and go study music. Though they share common feelings and certain facets with humanity in the end their minds are different from birth, from humans. This is a race that is dying out, and they know it. Humanity in 40k is blind to this ultimate truth, they dnt except it. Eldar however know they are dieing. These few reasons listed is why if an Eldar book is to be created it needs to have a comprehensive section to help players and the gm understand HOW different the eldar are from humans in 40k, or in general. Other than that the mindset of the different existing craftworlds in general should be gone into detail as to how a character from that wolrd feels. In closing if an Eldar books is to be done it needs a thorough section on how fundamentaly, psychologicaly, and morally the Eldar are different from humanity, or in my opinion it will fail. Cheers!

P.S. Bump on the possibility of an Ork core book, their cunning and brutality would be a real fun game to roleplay WAAAAAAAGHH



#27 Dulahan

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:40 PM

Inquisitor Augustus Pike said:

In my opinion, being a 40k fan for a long while now, the Eldar if they ever get a core book, would need a THOROUGH background section. I don't mean just craftworlds or history etc. I mean a comprehensive section on their mindset and how they think. For those players who want to roleplay Eldar, me slightly included, we'd need a really really firm idea as to how different the Eldar from us.(general fluff both new and old), They have the attention spans of a knat at times. Those locked on their path are those who don Aspect Warrior Exarch armor, the Farseers, Autarchs to name a few. An eldar citizen may go on a 100 year bout of being an Aspect warrior, and later get distracted by something and go study music. Though they share common feelings and certain facets with humanity in the end their minds are different from birth, from humans. This is a race that is dying out, and they know it. Humanity in 40k is blind to this ultimate truth, they dnt except it. Eldar however know they are dieing. These few reasons listed is why if an Eldar book is to be created it needs to have a comprehensive section to help players and the gm understand HOW different the eldar are from humans in 40k, or in general. Other than that the mindset of the different existing craftworlds in general should be gone into detail as to how a character from that wolrd feels. In closing if an Eldar books is to be done it needs a thorough section on how fundamentaly, psychologicaly, and morally the Eldar are different from humanity, or in my opinion it will fail. Cheers!

P.S. Bump on the possibility of an Ork core book, their cunning and brutality would be a real fun game to roleplay WAAAAAAAGHH

 

And that's important in any game!  And a big reason I'd love buying such a book (Or helping write it).  I love stuff like that.  It's a fun part of everything.  It's a big part of Tekumel and any other setting heavy game.  And in general fun to read!



#28 Blood Pact

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:14 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

 

They are BLOODY ELVES!!!!!!!!!!11!one.

And pretending to be an elf is the most basic of all roleplaying skills.

 

 

Okay Aluminium, you've convinced me.

Well.. not really.



#29 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:36 AM

Blood Pact said:

Okay Aluminium, you've convinced me.

Well.. not really.

I'm just saying, all you gotta do is act like Elrond from the LOTR movies. This is not difficult.

+++++I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.+++++



#30 tuco

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:47 AM

Is it possible that the FFG contract with GW prohibits development of certain intellectual properties?  I remember for along time that the Black Library submissions page would not accept any stories with Eldar as main characters.  It seems like GW likes there to be some areas of mystery in their universe.



#31 Darck Child

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

+++++I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.+++++

Wasn't that quote from the Matrix?



#32 Dulahan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:10 AM

Darck Child said:

AluminiumWolf said:

 

+++++I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.+++++

 

 

Wasn't that quote from the Matrix?

 

Look up Agent Elrond.  ;)



#33 Psion

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

tuco said:

Is it possible that the FFG contract with GW prohibits development of certain intellectual properties?  I remember for a long time that the Black Library submissions page would not accept any stories with Eldar as main characters.  It seems like GW likes there to be some areas of mystery in their universe.

... That would explain a great deal unfortunately.  On the flipside there's really no way of knowing for sure as it's not exactly our business to know the nature of their agreement.



#34 andrewm9

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:37 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

I'm just saying, all you gotta do is act like Elrond from the LOTR movies. This is not difficult.

Do you even know where Elrond is coming from in the movie? Why is he motivated to do the things he does? I have some insight into his character, but the movie doesn't do his character much justice. He's not even the oldest elf in the movie. That title probably goes to Galadriel. Needless to say even in the LotR the elves are different and not easy to understand. Elrond is quite the patronizing ass to Aragorn, his future son-in-law. Even more so in the books. Given his background I woudl have thought he woudl more understanding to Aragorn's real plight.



#35 Dulahan

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:01 AM

andrewm9 said:

AluminiumWolf said:

 

I'm just saying, all you gotta do is act like Elrond from the LOTR movies. This is not difficult.

 

 

Do you even know where Elrond is coming from in the movie? Why is he motivated to do the things he does? I have some insight into his character, but the movie doesn't do his character much justice. He's not even the oldest elf in the movie. That title probably goes to Galadriel. Needless to say even in the LotR the elves are different and not easy to understand. Elrond is quite the patronizing ass to Aragorn, his future son-in-law. Even more so in the books. Given his background I woudl have thought he woudl more understanding to Aragorn's real plight.

 

And yet Cubicle 7 seems to think Tolkein elves are perfectly playable in their RPG...

 

Honestly, I'm thinking GW Fiat is probably the real reason we haven't seen them as PCs yet, and the overly antagonistic Gen Con 2011 answer about no Alien Games EVER in 40k RP was just a very undiplomatic answer because they might not be able to admit the stricture of no aliens.



#36 Cifer

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:14 PM

Personally, I understand the "no playing Eldar" point. The usual argument against it is that no, Eldar are not that alien - after all, it was us that thought them up. And that's right.
However, there's a second side to this: A story can posit there's the greatest and most dangerous creature ever to walk the earth behind that door. As long as the door is never opened, the story author doesn't need to know what the creature looks like. He doesn't even need to be able to imagine it - that was a large point of H.P. Lovecraft's stories, after all. Thus, as long as a certain distance is kept, Eldar can appear within stories. Just like the author, the GM needs to know only about the parts of them that directly impact the players and can shift the rest around to his liking if and when he needs it, altering the game world if necessary to preserve continuity (such as a Farseer predicting a clumsy ambush and only sending a psychic double even if the GM found out about it rather late). However, as a player, I ideally know everything about my character. And "everything" might not be possible while letting the Eldar remain a mysterious race that truly deserves being called Xeno: the alien, that which is not us.



#37 Darck Child

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:15 PM

Dulahan said:

Look up Agent Elrond.  ;)

Okay :)



#38 Dok Martin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:08 PM

Cifer said:

Personally, I understand the "no playing Eldar" point. The usual argument against it is that no, Eldar are not that alien - after all, it was us that thought them up. And that's right.
However, there's a second side to this: A story can posit there's the greatest and most dangerous creature ever to walk the earth behind that door. As long as the door is never opened, the story author doesn't need to know what the creature looks like. He doesn't even need to be able to imagine it - that was a large point of H.P. Lovecraft's stories, after all. Thus, as long as a certain distance is kept, Eldar can appear within stories. Just like the author, the GM needs to know only about the parts of them that directly impact the players and can shift the rest around to his liking if and when he needs it, altering the game world if necessary to preserve continuity (such as a Farseer predicting a clumsy ambush and only sending a psychic double even if the GM found out about it rather late). However, as a player, I ideally know everything about my character. And "everything" might not be possible while letting the Eldar remain a mysterious race that truly deserves being called Xeno: the alien, that which is not us.

My thoughts exactly.



#39 Niqvah

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

I would respectfully point out, as others have mentioned, that GW is publishing two book series that are entirely from the Eldar point of view. One is set on a craftworld, exploring the paths of a Striking Scorpion, Farseer and Ranger (also detailing others, such as artists/poets). The other takes place inside Comorragh and some of its satellite realms, giving a Dark Eldar perspective and bringing in some other Eldar elements (I will say no more, not wishing to spoil the story).

Roleplay games have been built around the worlds established in just such short series, so I don't see why a person couldn't get enough insight into the Eldar mindset to come up with their own compelling and complete character by using these books, and source material such as the Eldar codex.

To return to Only War, I am still enthusiastic about what will be introduced in this new game, and I definitely don't think its release precludes the possibility of Eldar or other RPGs in future. If anything, the success of this new line will encourage FFG to develop more 40k games.



#40 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:48 PM

 Personally, I'd rather take the toys out of the packaging and play with them rather than leave them on the shelf and just think about playing with them.






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