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#141 borithan

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

I personally prefer the DH rules. With a little bit of a polish (clear up the unclear things), and a couple of the things from newer books (the only ones I can think of at the moment are the greater options for after a grapple, and the new Righteous Fury rules) and I think they would be fine. I personally don't actually like the change to melee attacks in BC(I didn't think there was a problem with the mechanics in the first place. The problem was with how they were used in Deathwatch), or the streamlining of the skills list.



#142 Lionus

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

I agree with Borithan. Although honestly have no interest in BC, and so don't know the rules changes in it, I always enjoyed DH. I also seem to be in a minority to prefer the psyker rules there, with the threshold numbers and whatnot, as it is far more unique, interesting, and random. The overbleed and '9' roll to invite catastrophe are much more flavorful and captivating than another bland skill roll.

In all, I'm not particulary excited about Only War being a whole game system, it seems like a mini version of DW. The scope may be different, but the options are even more limited, as guardsmen aren't likley to ever meet planetary governors or be jetsetting to faraway blasetd landscapes to kill vile enemies and steal ancient artifacts. I'm not trying to bash the guard, but face the reality that being an infantry private vs being a genehanced supersoldier are really two sides to the same coin, only that one side is much bigger than the other.

I just think the most interesting gaming oppertunites for OW charachters might be a 'saving private ryan' or 'Big Red One' or (although there's no movie yet, there will be) Shaikot Valley, Afghanistan. Then what? I'm not really into an Eldar game either, but I think there's enough of an umbrella already outh there to fit all of this stuff into exisiting lines.



#143 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

I was very much against the changes BC made to combat, but over time (and after playing it) I came around and started to like it.

Really it brought more parallels between ranged and melee attacks into the rules and allowed melee attacks to slot into existing types of rules (eg. how Dodge worked against multiple ranged hits now works in the same way vs melee). In the end I like the fact that there are ‘tiers’ of attacks, so Semi-Auto and Swift Attack now follow the same mechanic, rather than one being multiple hits based on DOS and the other being separate attacks rolled individually.

It also allowed the introduction of Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill bonuses, broadening the scope of what could interact with those values, and allowing previously unscalable Talents to suddenly scale (Mighty Shot and Crushing Blow causing extra damage based on how skilled you are makes a lot more sense than being a flat value that never changes).

I don’t agree with every consolidation – I don’t mind Climb/Swim being turned into Athletics, but I think Concealment and Silent Move were different enough to leave as separate Skills – but I think that the BC method went a long way to freeing up a lot of the rules, especially in the prevalence of (X) values after certain rules (so Concussive becoming Concussive (X), Primitive becoming the logical opposite of Proven, and so on).

The only thing BC lacks IMO are fail conditions. There needs to be a Jamming mechanic that works with melee attacks, and downsides to really screwing up a Parry/Dodge. No Test should so automatic that there’s no point in rolling the dice. Again, a bigger problem in Deathwatch than anywhere else, but still.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#144 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

Lionus said:

The scope may be different, but the options are even more limited, as guardsmen aren't likley to ever meet planetary governors or be jetsetting to faraway blasetd landscapes to kill vile enemies and steal ancient artifacts. I'm not trying to bash the guard, but face the reality that being an infantry private vs being a genehanced supersoldier are really two sides to the same coin, only that one side is much bigger than the other.

 

I hope you realise that most of what you just said was levelled at Deathwatch when it was first announced, that the scope was too small, that you couldn't role-play a Marine, that Marines were 1 dimensional, and that "killing stuff all the time" would make for a dull game? That said all of that about Deathwatch, and now you're saying much the same things about Only War.

So I'll give the same responce:

You get out of an RPG what you put into an RPG. If you approach this game thinking it has limited scope, then it will have limited scope. If you approach the game thinking that you can only do X with it, then X is all you’ll get.

 

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#145 Lionus

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 05:29 PM

 I actually thought playing astartes was a hela cool idea from the start. As far a roleplaying guardsmen, well i did my 4 years as a grunt and as a drilling reservist in the U.S. Army, I feel pretty confident that experience gives me a pretty clear idea of what people like guardsmen do. Its not cool, fun or particularly exciting except when its terrifying. You spend more time training and planning than anything else and 90% of the time its madeningly boring. This probably sounds more bitter than I actually feel, but space marines are people of destiny. Guardsmen are just people. Thats not wrong, its just already covered in two systems. Three with BC.



#146 Zakalwe

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:14 PM

H.B.M.C. said:


You get out of an RPG what you put into an RPG. If you approach this game thinking it has limited scope, then it will have limited scope. If you approach the game thinking that you can only do X with it, then X is all you’ll get.

 

BYE

OOOoohhh Yeeeaaaah!  Never a truer statement about RPGs.  

We're still playing Dark Heresy, only one real house rule, and we're still lovin' it.

 



#147 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

We play what we call 'Rambo Edition' Dark Heresy, where everyone has 30+ wounds, and I amended all the adversaries to have 30+ wounds and combat takes hours! In hindsight it really wasn't the best idea, but we are having fun.

When we hit Ascension we're going to have a 'rationalisation' and bring everything back down to normal levels.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#148 The Laughing God

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:34 AM

Cifer said:

@Eddie

So basically, Deathwatch. Just because you're alot stronger and higher up the food chain doesn't mean you're not toast.

Deathwatch certainly can be played that way. Hell, I'm sure I can turn D&D 4e into a Survival Horror game. However, neither game is meant for this application.
Deathwatch is a game of larger-than-life protagonists who are expected to beat all odds, because galaxy-wide, there's only a million of them and they regularly change the outcomes of wars. Any high command will know exactly what they're up to because they're the most expensive ground assets that the Imperium has apart from Titan Legions.
Playing the environment of these superhuman beings with the same "It's not like we don't have billions more of them" attitude as a guard campaign really doesn't do them justice.

and this whole distinction between superhuman elite warriors whose deeds change the outcome of battles and rank-and-file cannon fodder grunts who are tossed into the trench to slow down the enemy for a few hours with their lives makes me wonder how Only War will play out.

But we will see when the book is here! I am curious, a little bit skeptic, but not annoyed or outraged. I will certainly get the book and see what it is like.

I had the same questions when Deathwatch was announced: where is the roleplaying potential in this game? The way we play it now is like an action-RPG with lots of cool scenes and heroic fights. Military missions with little inbetween them. Works just fine.

Dark Heresy however, in my opinion remains the most broadly scoped and best suited approach to roleplaying in the W40,000 universe!


Show me ... everything!


#149 borithan

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:17 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

I was very much against the changes BC made to combat, but over time (and after playing it) I came around and started to like it.

Really it brought more parallels between ranged and melee attacks into the rules and allowed melee attacks to slot into existing types of rules (eg. how Dodge worked against multiple ranged hits now works in the same way vs melee). In the end I like the fact that there are ‘tiers’ of attacks, so Semi-Auto and Swift Attack now follow the same mechanic, rather than one being multiple hits based on DOS and the other being separate attacks rolled individually.

It also allowed the introduction of Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill bonuses, broadening the scope of what could interact with those values, and allowing previously unscalable Talents to suddenly scale (Mighty Shot and Crushing Blow causing extra damage based on how skilled you are makes a lot more sense than being a flat value that never changes).

I don’t agree with every consolidation – I don’t mind Climb/Swim being turned into Athletics, but I think Concealment and Silent Move were different enough to leave as separate Skills – but I think that the BC method went a long way to freeing up a lot of the rules, especially in the prevalence of (X) values after certain rules (so Concussive becoming Concussive (X), Primitive becoming the logical opposite of Proven, and so on).

The only thing BC lacks IMO are fail conditions. There needs to be a Jamming mechanic that works with melee attacks, and downsides to really screwing up a Parry/Dodge. No Test should so automatic that there’s no point in rolling the dice. Again, a bigger problem in Deathwatch than anywhere else, but still.

BYE

We have always been playing it that 96-100 always is a miss as the Jamming rule says something like (I haven't got it in front of me) "As well as automatically missing", which always struck us as a statement that 96+ was always an automatic miss (the fact that it isn't an explicit statement on it didn't dissuade us from this: This is GW and FFG we are talking about here). As far as non-attack automatic passes: It only became a problem when the modifier limit was increased to +/-60.

I wasn't terribly bothered about the fact that melee and ranged attacks used different methods. In fact I quite liked it. It was a problem in Deathwatch, but that was only because multiple attacks were treated like something that should be a special ability of the Assault Marine's (though I do realise the problem of making distinct "classes" for Space Marines).



#150 MILLANDSON

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:22 PM

Since my fiancee and a few friends I often play with dislike Space Marines (they find the whole concept tedious), but like the idea of playing a game where they can bring in the sort of feel from Commissar Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts, Only War will be a definite buy for me


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#151 Blood Pact

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:47 PM

To each their own.

Though I've always found playing a Space Marine to be quite fun. I suppose the Horus Heresy novels have really helped get me in to the subject more. There are some similarities to the 'band of brothers' feeling evoked by Only War. You read Flight of the Eisenstein you read about Death Guard Captain Garro and his "Honour Brother". It gives me idea that they're far more than killing machines that can't think past warfare.. usually.

The interplay between the group and their varying personalities and beliefs is where it's at outside of combat. They have to depend on each other, and the kind of bonds that can be forged while fighting with the Deathwatch are very strong. I want my White Scar to party with a Space Wolf!



#152 Hehateme

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 03:11 PM

Blood Pact, I completely agree, as I am currently running a Deathwatch campaign and enjoying it.

OW appeals to me as well though, because there are a number of adventure opportunities that don't exist in DW. For example, environmental hazards, which Space Marines are frustratingly immune to, can be brought in as complications in Only War. You can also run "down time" types of adventures where PCs are billeted in a city and go drinking, picking up hookers, gambling, fighting and getting into all manner of trouble. The politics of the Imperial Guard are very interesting as well, much more so than the generally apolitical Space Marines.

I feel like OW opens up possibilities for me as a GM which are currently closed while running Deathwatch. Still, I'm enjoying DW as well.

 



#153 Stormcrow77

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 06:43 PM

 I myself am looking forward to Only war.

I own the DH core, RT core & all the DW books. I have been running a weekly DW campign for almost a year.

 

A lot of you have been suggesting a core book for the 40k universe or that we will see 2nd ed books. But in my own humble option each time the new core book comes out it is the same rules with a tad bit changed here and there. 

BC was made , partly i think , as a rules upgrade for the 3 games before it. 

 

But i must say there is one thing i really dont like about FF and the 40k system and that the handling of xenos and other threats. Want stats on Dark Eldar and Necrons? Buy the BC . Really that and the new combat tweks in the only driving force for me to get this book. Daily i search Ebay for a $25 copy. I will NOT pay $60 for it. But i will for Only war..

Just my 2 cents.



#154 LETE

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Posted 19 April 2012 - 10:25 PM

macd21 said:

beowulf101 said:

 

 

Unfortunately it didn't.  CCP laid off almost all former White Wolf staff and have had to go print on demand and re-release "Classic World of Darkness" (As opposed to "Old World of Darkness" which is what it was called and what it still is) and they have to resort to kickstart programs to get product out.  The IP is now with CCP.  White Wolf as it was known is dead.  I hope they survive what they're going through, but their business model failed them. 

 

 

 

*snort* no. That's both an incomplete and inaccurate assessment of White Wolf, past and present. They are currently one of the strongest RPG companies on the market. And they moved to PoD specifically to divorce themselves from the publishing model you're advocating, freeing them to publish as and when they wished instead of 'building' on their existing lines (translation: release more and more crud) until the fans won't buy any more and they replace it with a new edition (allowing them to release the same old crud again).

 

Hiyas!

 

That's their spin on their own sorry situation.  WW is a shadow of its former "self"..  "How the mighty have fallen" & all that crap.

 

 

L






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