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Miloslav Warp Engines


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#1 Darth Fanboy

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:34 AM

Am I missing something, or are these flat out better than any of the alternatives?  A reduction in required Power, standard costs, a reduced journey time and a warp journey which actually comes out ahead on safety due to the reduced travel times? There has to be a catch somewhere (or, if there isn't, I'm going to have to introduce one).



#2 Errant

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:33 AM

 No catch. If you reduce it to one encounter every 2 days it makes more sense, in my opinion.



#3 Decessor

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:04 AM

If a ship is doing a lot of short journeys, the benefits aren't that great. For most rogue traders though, it's a superb acquisition.



#4 Red Bart

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

RAW for the Miloslav indeed makes no sense. I've house ruled it the following way:

The number of warp travel encounters is determined before halving the travel time. So a 30 days travel would be done in 15 days and generate 10 warp encounters (instead of 6 with a normal warp engine).



#5 Hygric

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:09 PM

Yes, the Miloslav is flat out better than a normal warp-drive, more power efficient, quicker, safer.

However, the wicked GM in me always has wondered just why is it so superior? Forbidden heretek components?  Xenotech contamination?  Precious archeotech?  Maybe even enslaved daemons at the core of the drive.

How would the party cope if, for instance, they discovered that there oh-so-good warp drive was only possible because of a forbidden artificial intelligence pulling the strings to create all those good benefits?



#6 MKX

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:58 PM

Hygric said:

How would the party cope if, for instance, they discovered that there oh-so-good warp drive was only possible because of a forbidden artificial intelligence pulling the strings to create all those good benefits?

Not strictly speaking for all the characters, but...

1. Is it working

2. Is it messing with us

3...

4. Profit?



#7 Errant

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:36 AM

 http://imageshack.us...wchart.png/sr=1


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#8 Ganelon

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:13 PM

Great stuff Errant :D

Needed a good laugh - and yet....it's all so true at the same time.



#9 HeavensThunderHammer

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:02 AM

Hygric said:

Yes, the Miloslav is flat out better than a normal warp-drive, more power efficient, quicker, safer.

However, the wicked GM in me always has wondered just why is it so superior? Forbidden heretek components?  Xenotech contamination?  Precious archeotech?  Maybe even enslaved daemons at the core of the drive.

How would the party cope if, for instance, they discovered that there oh-so-good warp drive was only possible because of a forbidden artificial intelligence pulling the strings to create all those good benefits?

This is getting used in my next game.



#10 Errant Knight

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 10:50 AM

I'm a bit surprised...this thread is 2 years old and yet I've not found another that addresses this glaring problem.  How do all you GMs out there deal with this?  In my second campaign, still running, I've taken out the doubled speed of the Miloslav entirely and it's still the warp drive of choice for my players.  What's the point of other warp drives?



#11 Marwynn

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Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:12 AM

We made the Miloslav a bit of a taboo drive, not quite heretech but getting there. It doesn't speed up Warp travel any more but rather reduces the amount of time that passed in the real world.

 

So warp travel still takes just as long, but with it you can (not always) maintain a 1 to 1 ratio of days travelled versus sidereal time.

 

That's useful if you have something time sensitive you need to get done. Not so useful if you want to speed up your colonies...


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#12 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:18 AM

I will just compare the original Warp Travel time for calculating the encounters, before I halve it for the actual time taken.
(so instead of getting 2x the encounters for 2x the speed, they get ~3.75x the encounters for 2x the speed)


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#13 Annaamarth

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:07 PM

Keep it simple- give it an SP cost.  Not sure why this had to be necro'd when there are so many solutions of varying simplicity.

 

1) Make it rarer, with the concomitant SP cost inherent to that rarity.  Or make it Archeo-/Xenos-tech.

 

2) the Yorke/Red Bart method of MOAR ENCOUNTARS, which could risk slowing the game.

 

3) Make it heretical, or at least questionable in nature, and slap a permanent morale penalty on the ship.

 

4) Make it a plot point, and then punish them with Inquisitorial or AdMech investigation.

 

5) Some combination of the above

 

6) Just ignore it.  It's just one more way that the player's ship is going to be slightly better than anyone else's, and there are so many ways that the playership is inherently better in more game-affecting ways in RAW (all ahead flank plus lock on target plus player-skill BS shooting tests plus all of the other player actions, compared to the limited number of actions NPC ships can make) that this is really just a drop in the bucket.


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#14 Errant Knight

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:30 PM

I'll have to disagree Annaamarth.  It's a big deal.  Take any of the published scenarios and toss in a Miloslav drive.  The whole scenario just got tossed out the window.  Let's be specific and use Lure of the Expanse.  The players take a month or two travelling to their first clue.  The scnenario recommends other Rogue Traders at the destination for some excitement and intrigue...except they are all weeks behind the Rogue Trader and the clue is gone before they get there, hence there is no competition for the rest of the adventure.  Or nerf that part of the scenario and the players Miloslav it over to the first pattern on the map.  Unlike the scenario suggests, there will be no competition because none of the other RTs have a Miloslav.  Meanwhile the players go on to objectives 3, 4, and 5 and maybe....MAYBE run into a competitor at the last one or two.

 

And what happened in the outside world while all this takes place?  The Rogue Trader zips a month to an objective while a year passes in the outer world.  They spend a month there and take off to the next objective, which is, say another month away.  Meanwhile the other RTs show up at objective 1 and spend a month there finding nothing.  That month is only a few days for the RT players in the void.  Say the non-Miloslavs come up with something (of course, you're having to Deus Ex the whole thing) and zip off to another objective, also say another month away (but they are all further than that, aren't they?).  Meanwhile the Miloslavers get to objective 2, get their cookies, and jet away to objective 3, which is what the non-Miloslavers are headed to.  But the Miloslavs still get there first, loot the cookie jar again and are off to yet another.

 

It's a big deal.  The Runecaster is just as big, but I don't ever see people going for it with their starting ship.

 

And yes, I was hoping people here had played enough to have made some rules on the Miloslav.  It's a complete no-brainer to get one.  Even after removing its super-human trait my players still buy it every single time.  Why wouldn't they?


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#15 Erathia

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:34 PM

And yes, I was hoping people here had played enough to have made some rules on the Miloslav.  It's a complete no-brainer to get one.  Even after removing its super-human trait my players still buy it every single time.  Why wouldn't they?

 

Because they can't find one. Ship parts are very difficult to find.

 

There are a few fixes that you can put in that I've thought about. Increase the difficulty of each Warp Encounter the longer you're in to represent the more dangerous use of warp travel, or implement a tearing system of Warp Encounters where you roll twice and take the worst.

 

I ultimately didn't bother with it because my players do a good enough job derailing my plot that I don't WANT to have them bogged down in the Warp. However if Miloslav engines are so superior (and they are), then also all enemies in thebook will have them. Easy.


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#16 Annaamarth

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 12:49 PM

7) Give the opposing Rogue Traders and organizations similar ways to speed their collective ways through the warp. "Anything you can do, I can do," said the GM to the players.  Assuming it's not of increased rarity, xenostech, archeotech, or heretical in nature there is no reason for every rival out there to have the same drive.  Assuming it is of increased rarity, xenostech, archeotech or heretical in nature, there is no reason for some rivals out there to have the same drive. [edit: ninja'd]

 

8) Location, Location, Location.  While everyone was racing to (place everyone is racing to), not everyone necessarily had the same starting location.  Therefore, even without a Miloslav drive, it's not impossible to assume that some (but fewer) people got 'there' first, just by virtue of being closer (in warp-travel terms) to begin with.

 

9) Instead of halving travel times, reduce them by 25%.

 

10) Ban it from your game or for starting vessels.

 

You make some good points- the Miloslav drive is perfect for a warp-style race, with checkpoints and everything.  RAW, it is a strategically powerful weapon, and I was wrong to minimize that- all of the other strengths players have are tactical in nature, and this is a very different tool in the toolbox.

 

However, there are still an abundance of ways to fix it- these were all off the top of my head.

 

I don't object to players acquiring strengths though, so my personal preference would be a combination of options:

 

 -1: increase SP

 -3: issue a constant morale penalty for using a warptech device, and rather than increasing encounters, increase morale damage due to warp encounters ("We brought this on ourselves!" the crew wail)

 -4: the Divine Light of Sollux would like a word.

 -5: (implicit, because this is a combination of the above)

 -7: there are other people who use this- particularly reavers, Chaos warbands and Rogue Traders of a certain stripe, who don't care what the Inquisition, Divine Light of Sollux, or in fact the crew think about the warp drive in use.


Edited by Annaamarth, 06 May 2014 - 12:50 PM.

RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

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#17 Sebastian Yorke

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:07 PM

Let's be specific and use Lure of the Expanse.

 

I was about to write about this. You said it all.

 

I will give them the pleasure though (to get there in half the time), but they will pay for it dearly while in transit.


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#18 Errant Knight

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 07:57 AM

Giving all the other RTs out there the same drive is the same as tossing out the standard and making the miloslav the new standard.  I really hate outright banning stuff from the game.  I've done that with the murder-servitors, but I why won't get into why since that would be a new thread in its own right (maybe I'll start that thread, hmm?).  I don't want to make a new series of rules that just complicates the game.  I like making it cost SP, but how much?  I tried 2 and they still bought it without second thought.  I guess that's the problem.  With ship backgrounds from Into the Storm and the Warrant histories, new ships can start out with 3 archeotechs, or with 2 archeotechs and 1 xenotech.  It's easy for players to pick some really powerful combinations.



#19 RogalDorn01

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:13 AM

Giving all the other RTs out there the same drive is the same as tossing out the standard and making the miloslav the new standard.  I really hate outright banning stuff from the game.  I've done that with the murder-servitors, but I why won't get into why since that would be a new thread in its own right (maybe I'll start that thread, hmm?).  I don't want to make a new series of rules that just complicates the game.  I like making it cost SP, but how much?  I tried 2 and they still bought it without second thought.  I guess that's the problem.  With ship backgrounds from Into the Storm and the Warrant histories, new ships can start out with 3 archeotechs, or with 2 archeotechs and 1 xenotech.  It's easy for players to pick some really powerful combinations.

You banned murder servitors?!?  Why?  They are awesome!!!


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#20 Annaamarth

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:58 AM

If you're having that much trouble with them, re-write them from the ground up.  Increase the power cost for that speedy warp travel.  Make it less efficient.

 

Have you tried working a morale hit into it?


RIP AND TEAR THROUGH THE TIDE OF BLOOD WITH BATTLESUIT PILOT. SUPLEX HIVE TYRANTS. DO WHATEVER, YOU'RE PILOTING A HUGE-ASS MECHA.

 -Errant, on how Rogue Trader ought to be played





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