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Where is Omega?


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#41 Lia Valenth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:10 AM

I think we have a fundamental disagreement of what The Wake is, not so much what this spell can do. I always think of it like Tel'aran'rhiod from The Wheel of Time, a dream world that is also a dimension of its own.

It does not make sense to me as just a dream world, where nothing there is real, for many reasons. But most importantly, because if we go with the idea nothing there is real Lord of Dreams/Nightmares is a useless ability because nothing it does can affect the real world in any way.

But, if it works like Tel'aran'rhiod, a world separate from our own, a reflection of it really, but just as real if you go there. The dangers there are just as real if you go there in body, and a "Your mind makes it real" thing if you go there in mind/spirit. In this case, while it reflects our world more, our world does reflect it to a lesser degree. From the description I have read, where you are in grave danger if you go there, this way makes more sense to me.

If The Wake is a reality of its own then things that happen there can effect the real world and permanent things done there persist. If it is just a dream world then it is unimportant to our world.



#42 Sidisessinu

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:22 AM

 I always thought the Wake was simaliar to the Fade in Dragon Age: Origins. A place that can be entered while dreaming or by those with a significant amount of power, and that it is a distorted reflection of our own world inhabited by it's own beings, usually called "demons."



#43 ElricOfMelnibone

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 01:31 AM

 It's true that the Wake IS in its way real. The whole point is that Lord of Dreams/Lord of Nightmares description CLEARLY SPECIFIES that the effects of your incremented gnosis in the wake DON'T transfer outside of it. You're actually having those powers "by a dream". You "dreaming of being uberpowerful and omnipotent", due to the working of the Wake, becomes reality as far as you are there...but when you leave the Wake, that becomes "Oh! It was just a dream!"

Luring opponents into the Wake is a good strategy for a Lord of Dreams/Nightmares (as is for Erebus Avatars).



#44 Lia Valenth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 02:05 AM

See, that is too simple for my tastes, and seems out of place for how the wake is described. If it is a dream killing someone there has no effect, or is only a "Your mind makes it real" thing. There is also a large difference between entering The Wake physically and spiritually to me. My point is: it either has an effect on the real world or it does not, which is all this argument comes down to. By "it does not" I mean it can have no affect on our world in any way no matter what you do, this includes killing things. However by it has an affect on the real world I mean at least some things that happen in the wake, such as killing people, have an affect on our world. If this is the case then it is much more complicated than a dream world.

If it is merely a dream world then it works like (in my understanding) the Fade in Dragon Age: Origins (I have not played but did look it up) in that if you die there you are jerked awake in the real world with some possible, but slight, mental/physical damage. This makes fighting in The Wake (especially against Omega who is mostly immune to any physical damage of this sort and is already insane) kind of pointless. Although the Fade is probably a little more complicated, the problem with this idea is that you can enter The Wake physically, meaning it is more than just a dream. How much more? that is the question.

I prefer my Tel'aran'rhoid idea, because 1) it is more lethal and thus more dangerous, 2) it has a bigger effect on the real world, 3) The Wheel of Time has already gone in depth to what going into Tel'aran'rhoid physically or spiritually does, and most importantly 4) how Tel'aran'rhoid works in WoT fits really well with the feel of Anima.



#45 shinjox

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 08:55 AM

It is a strong possibility that, what you do in the wake reamains (at least until someone else comes along and changes it), so luring and killing somoeone there, it stays dead. But, just like the world of dreams, if you get changed into a horse in it, you dont come out a horse. If you dream yourself the Creator, you don't leave a creator. Think of it as the abilities of a Dreamer. They can't do much (unless thier are chanellers too) outside the World of Dreams, but within, they are masters.



#46 Lia Valenth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:06 AM

shinjox said:

 

 But, just like the world of dreams, if you get changed into a horse in it, you dont come out a horse.

 

 

Why not? This is where we disagree, obviously. I say you do stay a horse if you entered there physically. If you entered there in a dream you come out a human, with some possible temporary mental problems.

Which is a big problem when dealing with the wake. There are two ways to enter it, dreaming and physically (through a portal).

If you dream yourself into the wake one way or another, then use Lord of Dreams it would only work as a dream because you are not actually in the wake, only your spirit  is. Turn into a horse, come out a human. Turn into a Chimera god, come out a human.
But if you enter the wake physically, your soul and body combining into one (I reread the wake for that bit, no idea what it really means) then anything that happens in the wake is as real to you as if it had happened in the real world. Turn into a horse, come out a horse. Turn into a Chimera god, come out a Chimera (possibly a god, though this is still up for debate).

If you enter it by dreaming you cannot be cut in half, but your mind could die (heart attack, aneurism, stress, etc. kills you in the real world, or you never come out and your body is brain dead).
If you enter physically you can be cut in half, stabbed through the heart, etc. You never return because your physical body was killed there.
(this is actually supported directly by the wording in the book)

I don't see The Wake being as simple as a dream world, and I do not believe it was meant to be that simple. Think I will ask on the Official forum and see what they think as well.



#47 shinjox

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:24 AM

 Good idea, after all right now, we are only speculating.

And unless someone misses my question, I'll ask again. 

Why would anyone want to be unChimira'd :D heh

 



#48 Lia Valenth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:28 AM

The Official Forum does have a chance of Anima Studios stepping in and telling me I'm wrong/right, which would at least end it

shinjox said:

 

Why would anyone want to be unChimira'd :D heh

 

 

So the GM doesn't shoot them in the foot, or to prevent yourself from being Summoned, Controlled or Bound (albeit this is probably the result of the GM shooting you in the foot).

Other than that, the only reason I can think of is so that you can Chimera yourself again and choose different powers this time .



#49 Lia Valenth

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:18 PM

Right now what I am getting is;

1) If you enter physically through a portal everything done there is real. Therefore if you are turned into a horse and then somehow return to Gaia you are still a horse.
2) With post-Core Exxet spells there is no way to use Lord of Dreams/Nightmares to use the Ascension and/or Dark Ascension spells to gain 45 Gnosis in Gaia, nor any other spell that requires maintenance. It would also probably be impossible pre-Core Exxet as well.
3) Killing or ressurrecting people in The Wake via Lord of Dreams, and what happens when you/they return to Gaia was not really answered other than people would not allow abuse of it.
4) As per permanent spells (specifically Eternal Magic) using Lord of Dreams, while I have not been satisfied, it looks like people agree with you in that they cannot be used to gain permanent effects. I disagree, but I believe I have been outvoted .

Finally, until something is said by Anima Studios, it is definitely arguable either way because, much like everything in this game, it was written very ambiguously. I will interpret it a completely different way within my games, but if someone asks I will go with the above.



#50 F3nr1s

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:43 AM

 I see it like Lia: The Wake is more than a dream world. It is a dimension, which mirrors some aspects of the real world, but not only dreams.

And for: "You enter the wake physical (also body and soul) and make your self a chimera god (Lord of Dreams/Nightmares)": IMO, you would leave the wake as chimera (your body was transformed into a chimera), but not as a "god" (Lord of Dreams/Nightmares make you only god in the wake, so it only "function" in the dimension called wake).

So long,



#51 Lia Valenth

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:43 AM

Someone finally posted the spell over there,

Lord of Dreams
Level: 80 Action: Active Type of Spell: Spiritual
Effect: Permits the control of a dream of an individual who fails a MR check of the spell. The caster has the ability to control the dreamworld of the sleeper as if he had a Gnosis of 45. In the case that the dream feeds on negative energy, that is it turns into a nightmare, his Gnosis is only 30. Spells that the caster is able to cast because of this Gnosis have no effect beyond the special limits of the spell and its effects disappear once the caster leaves the dream or the Wake.
Degree Base Intermediate Advanced Arcane
Zeon 300 400 500 750
INT Req. 12 14 16 18

Base: 140 MR (no effect over the Wake)
Intermediate: 150 MR / If the caster is in the Wake, he can control his surroundings and gains powers as a being with Gnosis 40, while in a place influenced by positive energy. On a neutral area, his powers will reach Gnosis 30. This spell only effects the Wake's area where it is used provided no entity of similar Gnosis is linked with it.
Advanced: 160 MR / Like Intermediate except the Gnosis in neutral areas is 35
Arcane: 180 MR / Like Advanced except the spell has no spatial limits, influencing all positive areas of the Wake
Maintenance: 60 / 65 / 70 / 80

We are getting closer to solving this one, methinks. I would like to know, do you agree with this translation of the spell?



#52 shinjox

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 12:27 PM

 Thats pretty much the translation that I have from Core Exxet. I posted earlier last line of the general effects earlier, which is what we have been stating as to why one can't use an 'unreal' spell to gain real effects. My translation may be slightly different, mostly just syntax and such, but it is the general gist.

 



#53 Jmacq1

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:56 AM

Pardon the question as I don't have the book in front of me, but are the stats in Those Who Walked Among Us actually the stats for Omega him (it)self?  Or are they for the "Shadow" of Omega (his avatars) in which case the "genuine article" is probably more powerful than the stats presented in the book?



#54 Black-Fox

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 03:26 AM

It has the stats for both.



#55 Drake Masters

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 12:46 PM

Just to weigh in, I know this is an old topic :)

 

Lord of Dreams/Nightmares:  I see it as not only having access to the Gnosis as when in the wake, but also what kind of dreams the dreamer is having.  Reducing it if the dreamer is opposite the spells nature.  Second, I read it as "as though you had", not actually having a gnosis itself, but being able to modify the environment as though you did. 

Chimera:  There's a couple of tricks I've discovered to reduce/inhibit summoning of chimera'd creatures: 

     Increasing Magic Resistance:  Any misc. bonus that increases magic resist (from abilities, spells, or the gift for example) increase your difficulty to summon by that amount. 

     Transform ability:  The Transform Monster ability (which requires a 25 gnosis and 60dp) can increase your "effective level" for purposes of summoning.  Each form you have that is the same level increases your effective level by +2, every form of a lower level increases it by +1.  so if I'm a 9th level character with Chimera and Transform with 2 extra forms of the same level (purchased individually, at 60dp a piece) my level for purposes of summon abilities difficulty would be 13






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