Jump to content



Photo

Where is Omega?


  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

#21 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 04:31 AM

Lucifer has 340+30 because of his higher Gnosis, totaling 370. 380 in Lord of the Infinite.



#22 Kalis

Kalis

    Member

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 05:20 AM

Once he is hit  with Sweep From the Heavens, he loses that bonus and he still needs to roll 200+ on a roll to do any damage, and with predetermined magic projection the mage can try to absorb every shot to keep his action.



#23 Sabaki

Sabaki

    Member

  • Members
  • 42 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:07 AM

I'm not sure whether to be enthused, or concerned that a level 10 character is one-offing Omega. Perhaps magic should be banned from my game.



#24 Kouryuu

Kouryuu

    Member

  • Members
  • 24 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:36 AM

Sabaki said:

I'm not sure whether to be enthused, or concerned that a level 10 character is one-offing Omega. Perhaps magic should be banned from my game.

So far, the impression I've been getting is that in Anima, level 10 is fairly equivalent to level 17-20 in DnD 3.5...



#25 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:08 PM

Level 10 is equivilant to about a level 20, maybe a little higher, in D&D, and I am using the most broken overpowered spells in the game to make the character a level 14 god. It relies on a few little loopholes in the game to work, because normally it is impossible. Divine Magic is supposed to be beyond the reach of players, because it is for gods only, I circumvented this little problem, but not in a way that would be OK with most GM's.

To compare it to D&D I am taking a level 20 Wizard, using a spell to make it a level 28 and giving it  Level 10+ Spells, then using the Level 10+ Spells to give them Divine Rank 15 and Epic Spells. Then using the Epic Spells and Divine Rank bonuses to kill Omega. Divine Magic is much the same as Epic Spells in D&D3.5, except a player will never have access to them in most casses, because they need to be a god to cast them. This means they need Gnosis 40+, which is much the same as Divine Rank in 3.5. (By the way I think the analogy got messed up at some point, but I hope the point made it across, being, while technically legal almost no GM would ever let you do this, and would not let you keep the character if you tried to keep the power.) Until last week I thought it was completely impossible without the GM saying, "I'm making you guys gods."

Basically this only works if the GM either agrees Omega is enough of a threat to let some major stretching of the rules pass for a short period of time, or is not paying enough attention to the mage.

It does not help that Omega is only level 16, and Kisadan can more than likely fight him 1 on 1. Kisadan would lose (probably) but would take a lot out of Omega. For an "Ultimate Being" he is a little boring, IMO anyway. If I were to use him as the fluff describes him I would probably bump him up to level 21~26, and then this would have no chance of working. However, assuming the fluff is more Prophecies of Doom and Destruction, blowing him out of proportion like all legends, instead of fact he would be level 16. Depends if I want him to be the last boss, or the thing behind him to be the last boss (then again, if you are level 10+ you have probably been having the game for 1-2 years, might be time to end it...)

EDIT: This is why Ultimate Beings in most games never get stats. You cannot kill what has no limits.



#26 ElricOfMelnibone

ElricOfMelnibone

    Member

  • Members
  • 886 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:23 PM

 Most characters are less powerful than they should be actually IMHO. For instance I rose the level of a few NPCs in the setting to match better my playstile and to make so that players will probably look up to them for quite a long while.



#27 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 10:27 PM

Elric of Melniboné said:

 Most characters are less powerful than they should be actually IMHO. For instance I rose the level of a few NPCs in the setting to match better my playstile and to make so that players will probably look up to them for quite a long while.

This is a good point as well. I do not know if this is because of design flaw, or because Gaia is supposed to be low-powered.



#28 ElricOfMelnibone

ElricOfMelnibone

    Member

  • Members
  • 886 posts

Posted 27 January 2012 - 11:42 PM

I read a bit of the spanish forum and it seems over there that even THE BIG BADASSES of the setting (like Demeter Stratos, for an instance) are no higher than level 18 most times (perhaps Nemesis is 20,  but he's one of the very few).



#29 shinjox

shinjox

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 28 January 2012 - 06:57 PM

Lia Valenth said:

1) Pre Core Exxet spells(less powerful)
     Start with a non-munchkin mage, but one that was built well, meaning INT 14-16 POW 10-12. Have them know the Book of Creation and Book of Light to level 100 in both. This guy should already have the Added Maintenance metamagic tree, which is my favorite of the trees, but as that there are 4 this is fairly likely anyway. Now have him cast Chimera on himself, increase POW to 15 and INT to 20 (this will take ~200DP, you should be able to get ~300) and Opposite Magic, then learn Book of Darkness and Book of Destruction as fast as possible. Next enter the wake and, using Lord of Dreams or Lord of Nightmares obtain access to Divine Magic. Finally use Ascension and Dark Ascension to increase your Gnosis by +20 (as that each gives +10Gnosis). With the 500DP get your Projection up to your now level 13-ness, increase Zeon, and use the rest of the DP as CP for whatever you need to improve, and with the +10 from your higher Gnosis, combined with a spell or metamagic ability to increase your projection, you might pull this off.
2) Post Core Exxet spells(what I planned this in)
     Much as above, except Chimera grants +400DP, Ascention automatically sets your Gnosis to 45 (albeit you have to cast Eternal Magic to make it Daily Maintenance) and by using Perfection to give +1 to all stats Chimera does not have to carry as much of a load. Unfortunently the Destruction Magic in this build is much weaker than in Pre-Core.

Yes this would work much better if they were a munchkin before casting Chimera, but the point is that it is doable with a fairly standard level 10 mage. But, as I said above, I would never allow this normally from a PC, just from the Munchkinity of it. And yes, by the end he is counted as a level 14, but as this is done by casting spells at level 10 I count it as a level 10.

Works all good if you plan to fight him in the Wake, but once you leave, anything aquired via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, including access to Divine, and any spell you cast go away (they are not real after all). Its not really clear in the Core Book descriptions of the spells, but it is clarified in the Core Exxect. And dont forget, once Chimira is cast, that character ceases being a 10th level character and becomes a 12th level character (if adding 200 DP) or a 14th (if you add 400 DP). Also, I am not sure where you can turn DP to CP. Must have missed that one.



#30 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:25 AM

shinjox said:

Works all good if you plan to fight him in the Wake, but once you leave, anything aquired via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, including access to Divine, and any spell you cast go away (they are not real after all). Its not really clear in the Core Book descriptions of the spells, but it is clarified in the Core Exxect. And dont forget, once Chimira is cast, that character ceases being a 10th level character and becomes a 12th level character (if adding 200 DP) or a 14th (if you add 400 DP). Also, I am not sure where you can turn DP to CP. Must have missed that one.

1) That thing about the Wake and Lord of Dreams is interesting. I would like more information on this because it does not make any sense to me. Yes you lose all the bonuses you gained from Lord of Dreams, but the character not using those after they leave the wake. I do not own Core Exxet so I cannot argue against this per se.

2) I noted they count as a level 12-14, but I count them as a level 10 because; A) Chimera is weird, B) This is done at level 10, so it only requires a level 10 to do not a level 12-14, and C) The plan involves returning to the original body and losing godhood after beating Omega, so they start and end at level 10.

3) Normally you cannot turn DP into CP or vise versa, however DP/CP bonus from Gnosis can be used as both I believe (Gnosis 45 grants 500DP or 10CP, I think you can use 300DP and 4CP if you want. I could be wrong). Albeit if Lord of Dreams works as you suggest this is moot...

Having said that I asked elsewhere and no one has said anything wrong with this plan (you know, other than the ridiculously munchkin, overpowered, and game breakingness of it). But it relies on Lord of Dreams working the way I think it does...



#31 Kalis

Kalis

    Member

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:13 AM

One problem with the 45 gnosis thing I noticed(aside from questionable transfers to the real world) is that you can't use the bonus dp you get, from gnosis, for anything other than essential abilities and powers, so no shoring up your magic projection.



#32 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:53 AM

Kalis said:

One problem with the 45 gnosis thing I noticed(aside from questionable transfers to the real world) is that you can't use the bonus dp you get, from gnosis, for anything other than essential abilities and powers, so no shoring up your magic projection.

Your right...I'm sure there is a way around this, can't think of one though...good catch.



#33 Kalis

Kalis

    Member

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:25 PM

The way around it is that Predetermined Zen metamagic crushes his defense and attack, and can be used to increase the MR checks he has to make.

Magic itself isn't that bad, but metamagic breaks the game over its knee. At level 10, 440 defense is basically unbeatable and it still holds up well at level 15. Half zeon costs on spells, increasing MR checks by casting automatic spells with magic projection, 5 free rounds to accumulate zeon, the ability to cast high magic at below 25 gnosis for the rather paltry doubling of spell costs(no need for chimera, just use this metamagic enter the world of dreams and get your 45 gnosis with the arcane level Ascension or Dark Ascension), doubling or tripling shield life points as a passive, and more.



#34 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:44 PM

Kalis said:

Magic itself isn't that bad, but metamagic breaks the game over its knee. At level 10, 440 defense is basically unbeatable and it still holds up well at level 15. Half zeon costs on spells, increasing MR checks by casting automatic spells with magic projection, 5 free rounds to accumulate zeon, the ability to cast high magic at below 25 gnosis for the rather paltry doubling of spell costs(no need for chimera, just use this metamagic enter the world of dreams and get your 45 gnosis with the arcane level Ascension or Dark Ascension), doubling or tripling shield life points as a passive, and more.

First I am ignoring the argument that would be started about balance.

That 440 Defense thing can be read two ways. I read it as you have to spend 200 Zeon every time you block, which works perfectly fine. Others read it as being able to cast the shield with 200 extra Zeon and block everything with 440 as long as the shield lasts, which does break the game.

Also, why would you not want to use Chimera (in this case)?



#35 shinjox

shinjox

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 12:58 PM

Once you cast Chimira on yourself or another, the change is permant, unless of course you die and are brought back into a different body. So basiaclly, once you cast it, short of getting a completly new body, you are still a higher level entity.


As for the Lord of Dreams/Nightmares, it is dependant. Nothing you gain with the higher Gnosis is real, since it itself is not real (it states that the Gnosis is real) and so once you leave the Wake, you no longer have anything that is gained from it.

 In core exxet it just glarifies and exands on it.

Basically, it may make you godlike in the dream/wake, but once you return to the real world, you are yourself again.

In the Core Book, it states: modifying it as if he had a Gnosis 45 (although it's not real).

Core Exxet states specificifically: Spells that the caster is able to cast because of this Gnosis have no effect beyond the special limits of the spell and its effects disappear once the caster leaves the dream or the Wake.



#36 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 01:07 PM

shinjox said:

In core exxet it just glarifies and exands on it. Basically, it may make you godlike in the dream/wake, but once you return to the real world, you are yourself again. In the Core Book, it states: modifying it as if he had a Gnosis 45 (although it's not real). Core Exxet states specificifically: Spells that the caster is able to cast because of this Gnosis have no effect beyond the special limits of the spell and its effects disappear once the caster leaves the dream of the Wake.

So...what if you cast Ascension with Lord of Dreams and then use the 45 Gnosis gained from Ascension to cast Dark Ascension? The Ascension spell is lost when you leave the wake because it was cast with Lord of Dreams, but the Dark Ascension was cast with Ascension and therefore is arguable.

Also, level 80 Essense spell can get you back to your body without death. That was my plan anyway.



#37 shinjox

shinjox

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 02:46 PM

Lia Valenth said:

 

So...what if you cast Ascension with Lord of Dreams and then use the 45 Gnosis gained from Ascension to cast Dark Ascension? The Ascension spell is lost when you leave the wake because it was cast with Lord of Dreams, but the Dark Ascension was cast with Ascension and therefore is arguable.

Also, level 80 Essense spell can get you back to your body without death. That was my plan anyway.

 

 

Since the Gnosis gained from Ascension is not real (as it is cast due to an not-real Gnosis from the Lord spell, the Dark Ascension isn't real. Any effect that is based on the fake Gnosis is only useful in the Wake, thus anything that uses that Gnois is fake as werll. You could cast a thousand effects based on one another, but if the base is fake, the whole of it is.

And I think you are thinking of the Level 76 spell, Transmigrate Soul, though you still need another body. Spiritual Existence (level 90 Essence) allows you to turn into a spiritual being, and is in essecnce Essence's Chimira.  I remember figuring out how to get yourself to enough Gnosis to beable to cast Divine, but for I can't remember it.  But your method will only work while in the Wake. 

But without changing bodies or something like that, you are still Chimiraed. And besides, why the heck would you want to STOP being Chimira'd. What wizard, even the most benificent of them, would want to give up the ability to cast High Magic?

Oh, you could get a godlike being with a gnosis 50 to cast Ascension or Dark Ascension on you, that would allow you to get up to a 40 Gnosis. THen Eternal Magic if you can get it to a point where it can affect Ascension/Dark Ascension (with Core Exxet rules you just need to cast it at the proper Grade to make it affect the spell).



#38 Kalis

Kalis

    Member

  • Members
  • 70 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 03:47 PM

Lia Valenth said:

Also, why would you not want to use Chimera (in this case)?

Because if you don't, you are still a natural being and that has certain protections that have been discussed at length in other topics. I don't want to be the Genie from Aladdin(phenominal cosmic power and itty bitty living space), just because Ash Ketchum comes along.



#39 Lia Valenth

Lia Valenth

    Member

  • Members
  • 376 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 04:03 PM

You are correct on the Essense spells, should have looked at that better. However,

shinjox said:

 

Since the Gnosis gained from Ascension is not real (as it is cast due to an not-real Gnosis from the Lord spell, the Dark Ascension isn't real. Any effect that is based on the fake Gnosis is only useful in the Wake, thus anything that uses that Gnois is fake as werll. You could cast a thousand effects based on one another, but if the base is fake, the whole of it is.

 

 

This does not make any sense to me, let me explain why.

example 1) You enter The Wake with the corpse of a recently dead ally (preferably less than a day) and use Lord of Dreams to have "fake" access to Divine Magic. Then you cast Resurrection (Level 96 Essense) then Lord of Souls (Level 100 Essense) to return the ally back to life. You then leave the wake with them and they die on the spot?
example 2) You use the plan I made to fight Omega, except you do it in The Wake. Then you use Destroy Powers and Sweep From the Heavens to make Omega a Gnosis 20 being with no supernatural abilities (this is easy if he fails the Destroy Powers). To make sure Omega is dead and stays dead you use Armageddon to destroy Omega body and soul. Then you leave The Wake. Then does Omega instantly comes back to life with full powers in The Wake?

Both examples use Divine Magic to accomplish something that you want permanent, but if the effects of your magic are not real then you cannot do anything that would affect the world with Lord of Dreams. Basically it becomes a useless spell. However, if instead Lord of Dreams allows you to use Divine magic while in the wake that ends when you leave because you no longer have the Gnosis, then things that have permanent durations persist after you leave the wake.

If the second thing is the case, and the above are permanent, then the spells cast through Lord of Dreams cannot be "fake". Thus it can be argued that Ascension, cast through Lord of Dreams, has its full effect. Therefore, any ability you use via Ascension persists after The Wake, including but not limited to Dark Ascension. Which gives me an idea for example #3 which complicates things further, but requires a mage and a few volunteers,

example 3) A mage goes into the wake and casts Ascention and then Chimera on another person, when casting Chimera gives them The Gift and 90 spell levels of Light (and other stuff to be determined later, not important atm I think) and teaches him the rest of the Book of Light. The wizard stays in the wake, the volunteer leaves (we'll call him chimera1.
Chimera1 now has 100 spell levels of Light and 45 Gnosis in the real world (maintained in The Wake by the first mage) and casts Ascension and Chimera on another person and teaches them to 100 level in Book of Light. This person is called Chimera2.
Chimera2 now goes to the wake and casts Ascension on the first Wizard, who casts Dark Ascension on himself. They both leave the wake and Ascension stops working on Chimera1, thereby Chimera2, and the Wizard. However by this point the Dark Ascension cast on the Wizard was caused by an Ascension that was used by an Ascension, both in the real world. Now what happens?

There is even more grounds to argue that the Dark Ascension in this case is capable of continuing. The only problem is that these are all Maintained abilities (what with Ascension becoming a per turn maintenance as of Core Exxet, which is very annoying IMO) and can therefore be argued either way. This would be a lot easier if I could figure out how to get 50Gnosis temporarily (like you could before Core Exxet).

To Kalis;
Once you have Gnosis 45 you are Immune to Control, Bind and Banish, and can choose rather or not you want to be summoned. Beings with more Gnosis can effect you, but that is GM meddling and GM wins over all other powers. Therefore, the answer to this is Ascension, as that I am getting the highest Gnosis a character can get without GM intervention. Had I know about it I would have used it before (albeit it may not work, as was pointed out by Shinjox, after Core Exxet).  This is found on page 179 under "Gnosis and Summoning". (Remember my comment about this being, "Make anyone a munchkin Plan Beta"?, well your summoner idea killed Alpha of just using Chimera and this small, one paragraph rule is why Beta, Chimera+Ascension, works.)

EDIT: Example 4) I thought of this because of what Kalis said, but the above examples 1-2 are permanent and example 3 is maintained, creating a bit of a problem. However here is a question: A character uses Lord of Dreams to obtain Divine Magic (like all examples here) , specifically Eternal Magic. He then casts Eternal Magic on Arcane Level Daily Spells, such as Damage Barrior, Increase Resistances, Perfect Shield, etc. These are permanant effects, just as killing someone, or bringing them back in the wake is. so if killing someone in the wake works, this should work. But does it, and if not why?

Oh and sorry, didn't mean to have this long of a speech...



#40 shinjox

shinjox

    Member

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 29 January 2012 - 06:53 PM

 Well, let me ask this in another way. Consider this. Wizard creates a illusiuon of an island. 

That is, in essence, what you are saying you can do. Not only build a city, but farms and fields, gardens that will thrive and the like. After all the Gnosis gained via the Lord of Dreams/Nightmares varies, depending on where you are in the wake (positive, negaitve, or neutrally balanced). 

While there might be some wiggle room with the Core Book, Core Exxet is pretty clear.

As for killing Omega and leaving, and him no longer being dead, theres a couple answers. 

One is that due to the nature of the Wake, which is all funky and wierd, no he would stay dead.

Two is that to kill a being of such godlike nature, perhaps you have to sacrifice something, like you life in the real world.

I am sure there are more possibilities, but you get my drift. 

But I guess it comes down to how your GM reads the spells, and such. Its a great idea, but at least for me, it wouldn't work that way. But then, when you look at most of the spells of Anima, they are very ambiugous, allowing for multiple amounts of interpretation.

 

Oh, and I forgot the example with Chimira 1 and 2. Once C1 leaves the Wake, anything that was cast on him by the other would go pft, and visa versa. The effects of anything allowed via Lord of Dreams/Nightmares does not leave the Wake (or a persons dreams). The name kinda gives it a way when you think about it. Lord of Dreams/Nightmares.
 






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS