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They Shall Not Cross & Narrow Sea


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#1 Nitro Pirate

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:29 AM

Hey all

 

If you discard Narrow Sea, then save it with They Shall Not Cross, is your next Stark character still reduced by two?



#2 Staton

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:35 AM

 No, because discarding is the cost you have to pay in order to reduce. So if the cost isn't paid, ie the location isn't discarded, then you don't get the reduction.



#3 ktom

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 07:43 AM

It should also be noted that the timing structure does not really allow you to save something that has been discarded for cost. In order to get to the point where you can use a save, the effect must be initiated completely. In order to initiate the effect completely, the cost must be paid in full. So by the time you could trigger the save, the location should already be moribund/discarded completely.

This particular understanding of the timing rules has never been confirmed outright by FFG, and the "cannot be saved" clarification that appears in a lot of costs seems to imply a save is possible, but it really is a correct application of the timing structure. And would prevent you from doing something like discarding your Narrow Sea just to save it with They Shall Not Cross in order to put a +2 Boon attachment on your favorite Stark character.



#4 Nitro Pirate

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 01:22 PM

ktom said:

It should also be noted that the timing structure does not really allow you to save something that has been discarded for cost. In order to get to the point where you can use a save, the effect must be initiated completely. In order to initiate the effect completely, the cost must be paid in full. So by the time you could trigger the save, the location should already be moribund/discarded completely.

This particular understanding of the timing rules has never been confirmed outright by FFG, and the "cannot be saved" clarification that appears in a lot of costs seems to imply a save is possible, but it really is a correct application of the timing structure. And would prevent you from doing something like discarding your Narrow Sea just to save it with They Shall Not Cross in order to put a +2 Boon attachment on your favorite Stark character.

 

Haha.. thanks :-)



#5 MrGloverGlover

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:08 AM

 Whilst I bow to your experience of the game versus mine, Ktom... I can't help but remain sceptical for the very reason you pointed out. Look at the wording on Borderland Keep as a prime example.

Are there other such examples of inconsistencies like this? (I'm almost afraid to ask).

 



#6 ktom

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 01:31 AM

There are plenty of "cannot be saved" criteria placed in costs. And there are plenty that are not.

You can look at it as being largely explanatory, ie, FFG didn't feel like answering the "what happens if I save it" question over and over, or you can look at it as implying the possibility of saving the character. You can also look at it as a maturing of the timing rules and templating of card effects.

Here's the thing: Let's say you have an effect that says "kill a character you control to choose and kill a character controlled by an opponent." Let's say that instead of saving his own character, your opponent cancels the effect. His character doesn't die (because the effect is canceled), but what happens to yours? It's still dead, right? Because all costs are paid before the cancel can be played in the first place. 

Well, cancels and saves are played at the same time. So if the character you killed for cost is dead before your opponent has a chance to play a cancel, shouldn't it also be dead before you have a chance to play a save?



#7 Twn2dn

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 05:21 AM

To add to Ktom, the card text/templates in this game are unfortunately pretty inconsistent. The game is supposed to flow intuitively, so FFG sometimes adds terms like "cannot be saved" as clarification, even when rules/timing clearly indicate that is already the case. Ironically, this attempt to simplify the game sometimes creates confusion, like it has in this case, because of the inconsistency of the use of this text.

Also, keep in mind that if you don't successfully pay the cost for something, then the effect won't complete. So even if you could save Narrow Sea like this, which you can't, you wouldn't get the benefit of the cost reduction.



#8 MrGloverGlover

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:26 AM

 It's such a shame then that what I'd been using the card to do frequently is prohibited. I was the reason NitroPirate asked, we're in the same mini-meta. I'd happily keep two in my deck if it worked that way, now I'll almost certainly take them out. Massively underpowered when compared to (surprise surprise) the Martell equivalent - but this is not the place to whine of such things.



#9 MrGloverGlover

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 06:28 AM

 But thank you both very much for your input 



#10 ktom

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Posted 07 January 2012 - 09:11 AM

Ultimately, there just aren't that many effects that discard locations, really.



#11 MrGloverGlover

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Posted 08 January 2012 - 07:22 AM

 Agreed, which is why I was pleased with myself when I thought to use it with Narrow Sea as a duel-purpose buff and accelerator. With it not being 100% clear by the rules I shall submit it for the designers for the next FAQ, but you have me covinced that you're correct.



#12 Lonewolf23

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:23 AM

Hello,

 

i'm new to the card game. i found this post by searching the card names, because i think they have a timing problem. But i think there are playable and usefull.

 

In the marshalling phase you play:

1. Discard Narrow Sea to get the effect for the next character you want to play.

2. You play They Shall Not Cross to cancel the discard. -> You don't get the reduce of cost

3. You canceled the discard and attach They Shall Not Cross to a character always in play.

4. You discard the Narrow Sea again. -> You get the reduce of cost

5. You play a character card with reduced costs.

 

I think this is the way to use this combo :-)



#13 -Istaril

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:10 AM

Again your proposal would not be legal, at least by current convention. 

 

The current convention isn't just that if you "Saved" a cost, the effect wouldn't happen, but rather that you cannot save from a cost at all. The 'cannot be saved' on several other costs is explanatory, but is true for all costs.



#14 Lonewolf23

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:38 AM

Sry for question again. But i think you don't understand me or i don't understand your answer.

 

I read the AGoT_FAQ and doesn't found anything that forbid the following play:

 

Marshalling phase:

After Framework Action the first active player reaches player actions (For example he has Narrow Sea and one character card in play). [I use the numbers like flowchart at FAQ page 21]

 

Normal example for use Narrow Sea:

 

First Action

1. Discard Narrow Sea

2. No Responses

3. No Action to resolve

4. No passive abilities

5. No responses

6. Narrow Sea leave play

 

Second Action

1. Want to play a charakter card which cost normally 3 gold. <- But i discarded Narrow Sea, so the gold costs is reduced to 1. Pay 1 gold.

2. No Responses

3. Play the character card

4. No passive abilities

5. No responses

6. End of Action

 

The example with They Shall Not Cross:

 

First Action

1. Discard Narrow Sea

2. No Responses from opponents. I play They Shall Not Cross and i place it on the existing character for STR+2.

3. No Action to resolve

4. No passive abilities

5. No responses

6. Narrow Sea not leave play

 

Second Action

1. Discard Narrow Sea

2. No Responses

3. No Action to resolve

4. No passive abilities

5. No responses

6. Narrow Sea leave play

 

Third Action

1. Want to play a charakter card which cost normally 3 gold. <- But i discarded Narrow Sea, so the gold costs is reduced to 1. Pay 1 gold.

2. No Responses

3. Play the character card

4. No passive abilities

5. No responses

6. End of Action

 

Where is my failure in understanding the timing?

 

Thank you for help


Edited by Lonewolf23, 07 November 2013 - 09:43 AM.


#15 -Istaril

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

Two points

 

One, "action resolving" includes the effect of Narrow Sea, so there's always an action resolving. You pay all costs (discarding it) in step 1 (Initialize), you pass step 2 (save/cancel), then you resolve (gain the "2 reduction") from narrow sea.

 

Note that the above clarification is irrelevant to the end result of the scenario we're discussing, but when you take the time to detail every step I'll take the time to correct any slight misunderstandings that might arrise from it!

 

Two: In your First action in scenario two, your save/cancel response is illegal. Simply put, you cannot cancel a cost (Paid in step 1) you can only cancel an effect (which would resolve in step 3).



#16 mdc273

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:58 PM

It really all comes down to what can be done in step 2:

 

"2) Save/cancel responses

In clockwise order, players now have the opportunity to cancel the action, or to save a chosen target from being killed, discarded, etc. If all players pass, then the action will be executed, and can no longer be canceled or its target(s) saved." - FAQ pg. 19

 

You'll note that the opportunity to save is exclusively limited to the targets of the effect. I'm a little let down by this being incomplete as current playing convention does not limit saves to "chosen targets" and allows saving of any card affected by a given effect or game mechanic. Even under that playing convention, though, the card being discarded as a cost is not affected by the resolution of the played card's or game mechanic's effect and therefore can not be saved.






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