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Lannister concerns. Game is unbalanced.


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#61 jhagen

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

I have made a PLAY VARIANT that will solve most the issues with the card imbalance:

 

http://www.fantasyfl...&efpag=0#631874

 

TLDR for the wall of text on the link:

Shuffle all the cards and deal them out randomly to players:

4 3 2 2 1 1 and a 0 combat value

 

The reason most people dont like playing games like "axis and alies" is that the axis player is designed to lose, and only wins with great luck or an incredible tactical error on the opposing force.

There is a lot of "back and forth" regarding the canon of the cards and their values as opposed to what they may seem to be in the lore.

Just remember all this is a game, and the cards and their abilities/values need to be balanced.

 

Try it out on your next game!



#62 Joeyk1985

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

Thanks jhagen, i will take a look and see how it goes…

Appreciate your input…



#63 jhagen

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:36 AM

one more variant to help:

http://www.fantasyfl...&efpag=0#616248

I recommend the #3 solution for 4/5 player and #2 for 6 player.



#64 DragonSlayer1

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

since Lani goes before Grey, try taking his navy the first turn and add a special consolidate on your capital in case you dont beat his navy. If his navy attacks the first turn, use your Raven to change your navy order to defend.

 

In my experience, Grey either gets pawned by Lani or tagteamed by him and Stark.



#65 FreddyTortilla

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

It is very important to defend the ship  in the Golden Sound. Put a special defense order, and hope that Greyjoy won't use the big boys on that one. Then... assuming Greyjoy moves knight and footman into Riverrun in turn one and there's no mustering in turn two, do as follows: Turn one: Special consolidate power in Lannisport (one ship in the PORT and upgrade Footman with Siege). CP in the other footman. Turn two: Use a raid with the ship in the Golden Sound to prevent naval support, attack Riverrun with Siege and Knight with March +1 and support +1 with footman in Stoney Sept. 

Lannister: 9 combat points.

Greyjoy: 3 (or 4, if uses defend).

Win.

 

If there is a Mustering and Greyjoy put 2 knights and a footman in Riverrun, Lannister drops a footman and a Ship in Lannisport...:

Greyjoy; 5. (10 with Euron and blade)

Lannister: 10 (choose a card at will)

Win.

 

And Lannister have the crow, so it's all good. From then on, just play smart and don't make mistakes.

 

Now.. If you lose the ship, and Greyjoy supports the battle:

(no mustering scenario)

Greyjoy: 5 (10 with Victarion, 9 with Euron, 11 maximum with blade)

Lannister: 9. Use the mountain to clean up that mess.

Win.



#66 SFRR

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 08:34 AM

In the RAW (rules as written) 6p game, the win/loss statistics speak for themselves.  None of the above Lannister strategies (all of which I have seen tried, and have tried myself, alter the inherent imbalance of the game; the RAW game is inherently imbalanced against and therefore "No Fun" for the Lannister player).  See below.

 

From the PBF Stats Box, posted on BGG:

 

House           Wins            Percentage

Greyjoy           17                   26%

Stark               15                   23%

Baratheon       12                   18%

Tyrell                9                    14%

Martell              7                    11%

Lannister          5                      8%

 

From Vassal, Stats I have collected from games I have played in, observed, or GM'd:

 

Victories by House:
Greyjoy 9
Baratheon 7
Tyrell 5
Martell 4
Stark 2
Lannister 1
 
Player Eliminations by House:
Lannister 5
Greyjoy 2
Stark 1
Martell 1

 

We play the T6 Rules, they work quite well, they have been play tested, and they result in a much more balanced, "fun" game, where any given player has an equal probability of winning, with any given house during any given game.


Edited by SFRR, 18 November 2013 - 12:19 PM.

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#67 SFRR

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

T6 Rules for a better, more balanced game experience, where any given player with any given house can win in any given game.

 

http://boardgamegeek...-for-6p-7p-agot

 

The Raven Track for 7p is missing, it goes (6p Unchanged from RAW):

 

1st 3 Stars

2nd 3 Stars

3rd 2 Stars

4th 2 Stars

5th 1 Star

6th No Special Orders

7th No Special Orders


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#68 KineticOperator

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 02:11 PM

I have played the game a few times, RAW, and haven't noticed the problem addressed here.  I have a question for those who point out that Greyjoy can take Lannister.  If Greyjoy does go after Lannister hammer and tongs, does it win?  And by that I don't mean does it win against Lannister, I mean does it win the whole game?  The reason I ask is that I have played another similar multi-player game (Samurai Swords/Shogun/Ikusa) extensively.  What happens often on there with supposedly "good" players, and by often I mean pretty much every single game, is that one of the players will be disadvantaged and one of the other players will move to eliminate him.  However, the losses the "victor" takes in the process of eliminating the weak player will guarantee that the player who "wins" that fight will also effectively lose any chance of winning the game in general.

 

I have pointed this out to that community, and the general attitude is that the weak player left themselves vulnerable so of course another player eliminated him.  I have yet to convince anyone (in that community) that if you have a brain in your head a player who cannot defeat you, but can render you so weak that you cannot win against your other opponents, is not really vulnerable to you.

 

So again I ask, if Greyjoy goes all out for Lannister does he reduce or eliminate his chance to win the game?  In the games I have played that is exactly what happens when Greyjoy and Lannister go head to head immediately.  Whether or not Lannister can take Greyjoy one on one is immaterial.  If Greyjoy goes for the throat immediately, he effectively eliminates himself along with Lannister.  He also removes an effective counter for Tyrell.  At the end of the throwdown Lannister may indeed be gone, but Tyrell and Stark are in so much better position that Greyjoy has pretty nearly handed the game to one of the two of them.  On the other hand, when Lannister and Greyjoy join forces they can both be effective and real contenders for victory.

 

Am I only seeing it this way because of how my group plays, or is this generally true?


Edited by KineticOperator, 22 December 2013 - 02:15 PM.


#69 SFRR

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:55 AM

I have played the game a few times, RAW, and haven't noticed the problem addressed here.  I have a question for those who point out that Greyjoy can take Lannister.  If Greyjoy does go after Lannister hammer and tongs, does it win?  And by that I don't mean does it win against Lannister, I mean does it win the whole game?  The reason I ask is that I have played another similar multi-player game (Samurai Swords/Shogun/Ikusa) extensively.  What happens often on there with supposedly "good" players, and by often I mean pretty much every single game, is that one of the players will be disadvantaged and one of the other players will move to eliminate him.  However, the losses the "victor" takes in the process of eliminating the weak player will guarantee that the player who "wins" that fight will also effectively lose any chance of winning the game in general.

 

I have pointed this out to that community, and the general attitude is that the weak player left themselves vulnerable so of course another player eliminated him.  I have yet to convince anyone (in that community) that if you have a brain in your head a player who cannot defeat you, but can render you so weak that you cannot win against your other opponents, is not really vulnerable to you.

 

So again I ask, if Greyjoy goes all out for Lannister does he reduce or eliminate his chance to win the game?  In the games I have played that is exactly what happens when Greyjoy and Lannister go head to head immediately.  Whether or not Lannister can take Greyjoy one on one is immaterial.  If Greyjoy goes for the throat immediately, he effectively eliminates himself along with Lannister.  He also removes an effective counter for Tyrell.  At the end of the throwdown Lannister may indeed be gone, but Tyrell and Stark are in so much better position that Greyjoy has pretty nearly handed the game to one of the two of them.  On the other hand, when Lannister and Greyjoy join forces they can both be effective and real contenders for victory.

 

Am I only seeing it this way because of how my group plays, or is this generally true?

No, by critically weakening, or even eliminating, Lannister, Greyjoy wins.  This is not "Risk" - fighting does not cause casualties to both parties, only the loser of the battle.

 

Again, the win/loss statistics speak for themselves...the T6 Rules correct the imbalance, and the RAW Lannister House Cards do suck; adding Qyburn and Ser Addam Marbrand (removing Cersei and Kevan Lannister), while adjusting the units in starting set-up DO make a difference, a valuable difference, and IMPROVE an otherwise imbalanced game.


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#70 KineticOperator

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:51 PM

Fighting does not cause casualties.  It does however require that you use your most powerful house cards, and all of your forces.  If I am Stark and I see Greyjoy do this, then I expand dramatically into unguarded areas.  If I am Tyrell, I move north into unguarded territories as well.  I have never seen a situation, in theory or practice, where Greyjoy can leave himself in a better position vs. Stark and/or Tyrell at the end of his fight with Lannister.  The house cards used alone will guarantee that Greyjoy will get crushed by both Tyrell and Stark when the fighting begins.



#71 SFRR

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:05 PM

Fighting does not cause casualties.  It does however require that you use your most powerful house cards, and all of your forces.  If I am Stark and I see Greyjoy do this, then I expand dramatically into unguarded areas.  If I am Tyrell, I move north into unguarded territories as well.  I have never seen a situation, in theory or practice, where Greyjoy can leave himself in a better position vs. Stark and/or Tyrell at the end of his fight with Lannister.  The house cards used alone will guarantee that Greyjoy will get crushed by both Tyrell and Stark when the fighting begins.

I completely agree with you actually...the problem is that it takes Stark too long in most cases to build the forces necessary to push back Greyjoy "early game" - and in RAW, Lannister cannot defend themselves against Greyjoy with the Sword - So..."yes" Tyrell and Stark "Mid Game" or "Late Game" can proceed as you suggest (no doubt, I have seen this multiple times), but the issue is (for me at least) that Lannister cannot adequately defend themselves in RAW "Early Game."

 

Since you have clearly played the game a few times...and you know that the expert players in the "Early Game" fight their first few battles for House Card advantage (ie, play low cards 1st to see if they can sucker their enemy into expending their best cards), positioning 2nd (positions which can provide support to multiple key spaces), and VP's 3rd (again, this is in "early game")...imagine Lannister with Qyburn and Ser Addam Marbrand...having started with 2 Knights.   Now, Greyjoy with the Sword will still win all of the early battles in game rounds 1 & 2...but at what cost (?)...when Lannister can counter with Qyburn or Ser Addam Marbrand..."Balon" (Greyjoy) is no longer the immediate "auto-victory" - try the T6 Rules...trust me...anyone can win...Lannister no longer needs to depend on the benevolence of Greyjoy - this makes for a much better game.

 

Just fyi, I have won a game on Vassal in RAW 6p with Lannister...but honestly...ONLY because both Baratheon and Greyjoy in that game were complete newbs and sucked.

 

thanks for your post.


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#72 Phades

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

 

Fighting does not cause casualties.  It does however require that you use your most powerful house cards, and all of your forces.  If I am Stark and I see Greyjoy do this, then I expand dramatically into unguarded areas.  If I am Tyrell, I move north into unguarded territories as well.  I have never seen a situation, in theory or practice, where Greyjoy can leave himself in a better position vs. Stark and/or Tyrell at the end of his fight with Lannister.  The house cards used alone will guarantee that Greyjoy will get crushed by both Tyrell and Stark when the fighting begins.

I completely agree with you actually...the problem is that it takes Stark too long in most cases to build the forces necessary to push back Greyjoy "early game" - and in RAW, Lannister cannot defend themselves against Greyjoy with the Sword - So..."yes" Tyrell and Stark "Mid Game" or "Late Game" can proceed as you suggest (no doubt, I have seen this multiple times), but the issue is (for me at least) that Lannister cannot adequately defend themselves in RAW "Early Game."

What I have noticed is that Stark doesn't have to have a lot of forces to push Greyjoy into irrellevancy. Elimination is a much more difficult proposition. In this sense, Stark is the check move keeping Greyjoy from expanding and then massing overwelming military by the 3rd-5th turn and arguably Stark must do this if he wants to amass a military of a respectable size prior to the end of the game, due to him only getting "easy" access to 2 forts additional forts outside Winterfell, 3 if you count Eyrie (I don't). By contrast, other nations get access to 1 castle and 1 fort or the potential for 2 castles and 1 fort expansion early on.

 

If the Lannister and Greyjoy are going after each other aggresively, which forces the Greyjoy player to utilize his better generals (and power tokens, if the Greyjoy player is using the bait and switch into combo methods), that does all the work required by turn 2 to get Stark into Seaguard. If the Greyjoy player does burn through his power tokens and generals at a quickened pace through being attacked by 2 sides, Tyrion's ability to bump out the last general in his hand becomes more useful, albiet briefly. I am somewhat surprised that Tyrion's text ability doesn't shorten the hand (forcing a discard prior to the swap) making the ability far more interesting and playing to the strength of attrition based warfare. Furthermore, this entirely assures that if a vote sequence comes up, that he will lose the Valerion Sword and military position to either Martel or Tyrell. Once this happens, It just comes down to a question of if the Tyrell player had fire burning under is butt and did a hard push north into Searoad Marches threatening the Lannister capitol Lannisport.

 

Martell, similar to Stark, is a check move to Baratheon in that he should engage in combats with small risk and eliminate his position on the throne. This, concurrently, will likely draw out Baratheon cards with swords to eliminate the units early on and allow "safer" combats to occur, as they will occur often on that side of the board given Martell's need to acquire addition power icons more commonly found towards the center of the map.

 

 

This said, I have never seen Greyjoy come out ahead overall and typically gets bottled up in his home territory of Pike. Lannister's wellbeing seems entirely hinged on what Tyrell chooses to do though and can get wiped off the map entirely if Tyrell doesn't engage Baratheon or Martel.

 

The only times I've seen Lannister and Greyjoy do well, would be to act against their own (fictional) nature and cooperate with each other with Greyjoy conceeding Riverrun to Lannister and Turtling up Greywater watch, The Twins, and Seaguard while being a pirate and moving to control Bay of Ice with his ship(s) and using raid orders to prevent consolidation of power moves in the north until he can push through Moat Cain successfully.

 

What I don't like about the early game so far, is how the kings court track seems to be on the weak side along with the raven initially. When you have a lot of armies and issuing a lot of orders, being able to drop down 3 special orders and swap out 1 order is very strong, but when you can only drop down 3 orders total early in the game and only swap out one, but two of your orders issued are going to be move orders by default, it doesn't seem to make much of a difference at all. While the Iron Throne Track along with the Fiefdom Track give immediate and lasting benefits throughout the game. I also find it weird that more units are given to Baratheon and Greyjoy initially. Sure, they should have larger navies initially, but the other houses should have larger land based armies and or territories to start with to compensate.

 

edit: typos/grammar


Edited by Phades, 27 January 2014 - 05:43 PM.


#73 SFRR

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 07:39 AM

Updated Win-by-House stats I have been keeping (majority of these games have been played on Vassal, which uses RAW rules):

 

"The below statistics are for games I have played in, GM'd, or observed.
 
Victories by House:
Greyjoy 10
Baratheon 10
Tyrell 7
Stark 6
Martell 4
Lannister 3
Arryn 1 *(have only had Arryn in [1] 7-player game, which they won!)
 
Player Eliminations by House:
Lannister 6
Greyjoy 5
Stark 1
Martell 1"

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#74 Phades

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:02 PM

I find it weird that Greyjoy is both at the top win wise and almost at the top elimination wise. I have issues understanding how they win, unless Stark does nothing early on.

 

Eliminating Baratheon or Greyjoy is a major pain in the butt, due to their Naval warfare bias and territory that allows for cross support. I am surprised that Greyjoy is actually eliminated that often over the course of 41 games (~12% of the time). Lannister doesn't come as a surprise if there is a Tyrell player and he pushes hard north (those games Baratheon tends to win by default, due to weak opposition with most everyone getting tied up on the west side of the map).

 

Is there anything that stands out trend wise in the matches you saw?



#75 SFRR

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:14 PM

The Greyjoy eliminations that I have witnessed arise when Greyjoy trusts too greatly in a Lannister alliance, and then Lannister, along with Stark, sometimes even assisted by Tyrell, take Pyke, and Seaguard.  It has happened several times, per the numbers above, but the circumstances seem to have always been the same:

1. GJ & Lanni ally early, 1st game round

2. GJ goes all out for Stark, generally reducing him to 1 VP, and taking Winterfell (WF)

3. GJ has very little defense left behind

4. Lanni backstabs GJ with Tyrell help, GJ gets eliminated

 

It comes from a strategic error on the part of GJ, and is preventable.

 

But the win stats for GJ and Bara speak for themselves, after 41 games.  That's why my group when we play FtF, use the T6 Rules, any House can win then.


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#76 Phades

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:43 AM

Is the "strategic error" losing both sunset sea and ironman bay in the same turn ignoring a large ship buildup by both tyrell and lannister?

 

Seems hard to pull off (since they have to break sunset sea with 2 cross supports going on), unless the supply line was left deliberately weak. Still seems weird to me regardless. The turn limit usually is what keeps greyjoy from winning in the games i've played (mainly due to supply values not getting updated in the same turn that troops are mustered), since ties in castles get determined by supply then power stored up. Actually, something like that just seems like it would be telegraphed way too much since Tyrell starts really out of position for a move like that. While both parties would be sacrificing a fair bit of land power potential to make that work.

 

It just seems off. Even in a turn where march +1 and support orders can be played, to jump him suddenly with 2 sets of 3 boats with tyrell taking the lead and trying to knight of flowers the move forcing the issue to be addressed on pike the next turn, Greyjoy either has to not have access to the valyrian steel blade and crow's eye, or a defense +2 order and the valyrian steel blade, or crow's eye and a defense +2 order etc. (assuming boats steup ideally in a 2-1-2 formation for support + bridge). Failing that allows the potential for Greyjoy to counter in the following turn and push the boats out again preventing the siege (turn order dependent).

 

I completely understand them getting contained or pushed off the mainland, but losing pike just seems nearly a fantasy much in the same way Baratheon can troll folks trying to attack him from the sea with him just blowing off the first "real" attack with Salladhor and adjusting his strategy afterwards in the next turn. Avoiding Salladhor trolling is a many turns in advance war of attrition plan which in any other game would have meant an auto win by the player pulling off that gambit.



#77 SFRR

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 09:26 PM

I think in the cases above the GJ player(s) was/were very new, there is a wide variety of game experience on Vassal.


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#78 jfoster82

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:51 AM

I think it is clear that a Lanister player will have his hands full trying to beat back  a determined GJ attack.

 

However, what if Lanister is the aggressor ?

 

Turn 1

CP* - Lanisport

M+1 - Golden sound

M+0 - Stoney

 

Attack Ironmans bay with Ship from GS.  Use Jamie or Cerci.  This will result in defeat, but will force GJ to use 1 or 2 house cards.  2 cards if Aeron is used.

 

If GJ proceeds to take river run, attack from Stoney Sept and use The hound. (Another GJ card gone)

 

CP* Muster

If ship is alive - > add Siege

If ship is dead - > ship in GS and upgrade FM to Siege.

 

Turn 2 (no Mustering)

M+1 - Lanisport

S+1 - Stoney

Raid - GS

 

Raid GJ support in Ironmans or change to Def +1

 

At this point Lanister should be able to take River Run with no problem and possibly use Gregor for massive casualties.


Edited by jfoster82, 03 March 2014 - 10:01 AM.


#79 dancemachine

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:49 AM

I think it is clear that a Lanister player will have his hands full trying to beat back  a determined GJ attack.

 

However, what if Lanister is the aggressor ?

 

Turn 1

CP* - Lanisport

M+1 - Golden sound

M+0 - Stoney

 

Attack Ironmans bay with Ship from GS.  Use Jamie or Cerci.  This will result in defeat, but will force GJ to use 1 or 2 house cards.  2 cards if Aeron is used.

 

If GJ proceeds to take river run, attack from Stoney Sept and use The hound. (Another GJ card gone)

 

CP* Muster

If ship is alive - > add Siege

If ship is dead - > ship in GS and upgrade FM to Siege.

 

Turn 2 (no Mustering)

M+1 - Lanisport

S+1 - Stoney

Raid - GS

 

Raid GJ support in Ironmans or change to Def +1

 

At this point Lanister should be able to take River Run with no problem and possibly use Gregor for massive casualties.

The point is that nothing really prevents GJ from taking Riverrun on turn 1.
There's a high possibility that after you reclaim Riverrun with the siege on turn 2 GJ will counter attack with Balon GJ card onto Riverrun with 99% chance of reclaiming it back and destroying the siege, which will be huge. Way better is to try Marching from Stoney and Supporting from Lannisport. That will give you more combat strength during defence of Riverrun.

Though  siege is bad imo.
Nice option would be mustering a ship in port (if the initial ship has survived) + a footman, which will give you a chance to use sir Kevan to beat Balon card.

Well, there's also a chance that after reclaiming Riverrun with siege you will use Sersei and remove the possible counterattack March order, but GJ got 2 of them anyway.

To be honest GJ vs Lannister depends purely on Westeros card  in case if players are equally good.

*update:

There's also an option of putting 3 March orders in order to group your land units and fight for Riverrun with Ser Kevan after GJ uses all of March orders. This may allow you to attack Seaguard on the next turn, if there will be no Clash of Kings.
(This scenario leaves you vulnerable to sea attack on 1st turn though. Also depending on how much army will you need to take Riverrun, you may need to leave Lannisport with all the armies so you wont be able to Muster - then just pray for Mustering Westeros card).


Edited by dancemachine, 04 March 2014 - 06:07 AM.


#80 jfoster82

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:33 AM

I see your point about the Siege and using Kevan, however Balon may have already been played.  What is mustered with CP* is dependent upon what cards GJ has played.

 

The point of this tactic is to get GJ to play cards.  It is possible for GJ to have played 4 cards by the end of the first turn.  Lani will have only played 3.

 

Example -  This is what I consider Best Case for GJ

 

Turn 1: 

Lanister

  • CP* - Lanisport
  • M+1 - Golden sound
  • M+0 - Stoney

GJ

  • CP - Port
  • CP - Greywater
  • M-1 - Pyke
  • M+0 - Ironmans
 

 

Ship Combat:  GS + 1 > Iornmans

  • 2 v 1
  • Lanister use Jamie
  • GJ use Areon > change to theon
  • 4 v 3 + 1(sword) = 4v4
  • retreat to GS

Assume GJ moves Kn and FM to riverrun

 

Stoney Sept:  

  • 1 v 3
  • Lanister > The hound
  • GJ > Asha
  • 3 v 3
  • Retreat no casualties 

Ironmans > GS

  • 0 v 1
  • Lanister > Cersei
  • GJ > Dagmar
  • 0 v 2 
  • Ship destroyed

CP*

  • Ship in Lanisport-port
  • FM in Lanisport

 

End of turn 1 Card status

  • GJ - used, Areon, Theon, Asha and Dagmar
  • Lani - used, Cersei, Jamie, Hound

A lot can happen here with westeros cards.  I will not go into every possibility

 

Clash - GJ will likely want to keep the blade.  Lanister wants to stay ahead on IT and have star orders.  Both have 5 PT

Muster

  • Lanister - upgrade FM to Siege and FM to Kn
  • GJ - Riverrun add KN, Ship to Ironmans, FM to Pyke

 

Turn 2 - There are quite a few possibilities here.  I will give a likely scenario 

Lanister

  • S+1 - Stoney Sept
  • M+1 - Lanisport
  • Raid or CP - port (use raven to change)

GJ

  • D+1 - River Run
  • S+0 - Ironmans
  • S+0 - GS
  • M+0 - Greywater
  • CP - Pyke
  • CP - Port of Pyke

 Lansiport > Riverrun

  • Lanister power = base 8 + march 1+ support 2 =  11
  • GJ power = base 5 + Def 1 + support 1 = 7
  • Lanister - Gregor
  • GJ - doesnt matter - event with sword
  • All GJ units dead

GJ would then take seagard

 

I'm not going to continue but here are a few thoughts

 

Greyjoy has two cards left and has just suffered major casualties.  Lanister still has Kevan, Tywin and Tyrion left.  Tyrion should be used on GJ's last card to prevent hand reset.  This is even better for lanister if no muster had come up.

 

That being said, GJ holds an advantage at sea that will be hard to break.  If Lanister sees march in ironmans on first turn he could respond by changing GS to Def+2 and marching stoney to harrenhall.

 

I think this would take most GJ Players by surprise since it is very unusual and if GJ makes mistakes in this it could be very bad. 

Thoughts?


Edited by jfoster82, 04 March 2014 - 09:39 AM.





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