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Lannister concerns. Game is unbalanced.


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#41 TrueDisciple

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

I had a question about this topic, in particulat for jhagen as you seem to be well versed in this game. Let me preface this by saying I have never played this game and will be playing it with a bunch of new players this weekend for the first time. I have been reading up as much as I can to ensure we have the best possible gaming experience that we can. In the archived forums this topic came up and vendredi gave what seemed to be pretty decent counter to the initial Greyjoy assault that seems to be solid enough to even convince Greyjoy not to take Riverrun at the start of the game. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is the link to the old thread and a copy paste of the strategy I am talking about:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=66&efcid=28&efidt=584954

vendredi said:

Long-time lurker who finally managed to pick up a copy of 2nd edition for myself. I've been following discussions of the "Lannister weakness" here and on BGG, but it doesn't really ring true to me after looking at the game...

From the "theme" standpoint, I actually think the Lannister position is quite faithful to the first book. Remember that:

{SPOILERS FOR BOOK 1)

 

 

1. Cersei bribes the gold cloaks to take King's Landing but the actual number of Lannister swords in the city is very small.

2. Tywin is furious with Joffrey for executing Ned, because the Lannisters are caught between Baratheon-Tyrell and Stark in the North and fighting on two fronts. He dispatches Tyrion with a real Lannister force to try and hold King's Landing.

3. Lannister loses every proper Stark engagement save for the feint by Bolton, which puts paid the notion that the gold of Casterly Rock somehow enables the Lannisters to fight any better than the northmen.

4. Balon Greyjoy decides to go after Stark rather than much richer Lannister due to a personal grudge against the Starks.

 

 

 

{SPOILERS END HERE}

So really, the book Lannisters aren't really all that more powerful than they're represented on the board game. They're just very lucky and very good at politicking - both of which are adequately represented by their positions on the Influence tracks: lousy on Fiefdoms, best at the King's Court, and second best on the Throne.

 

Now, from the game balance perspective...

Karl M said:

So we did many scenarios in which the Greyjoy tried to take Riverrun and saw that it was impossible for the Lannister player to counter in any way. We spent a couple of hours trying to see if somehow we were wrong but it seems we are not. This is by not applying the new Battle cards systems. It all because of the Aeron Damphair card that let you see the opponent card and for the cost 2 power token makes you changed the card ( but Aeron is discarded) Combined with the +1 the Valyrian blade it gives no chance to the Lannister player.

 

While Damphair allows the Greyjoy player to dictate the outcome of every battle, 2 power does hurt! Also, Lannister can dictate the strategic situation so long as they hold the Messenger Raven - they can change orders. If Greyjoy holds 2 power in order to use the Damphair, they're unlikely to gain on the King's Court Track and likely will not have special orders. I think the combination of special orders, the Raven, plus the fact that Lannister will act before Greyjoy makes them very deadly and hardly a pushover. The key is to use the Raven to change key orders from raids to support, and staying ahead of Greyjoy in turn order - both easy to do if Greyjoy must conserve power for Aeron.

Here is my proposed: "Riverrun or Bust" Lannister opening:

1. March -1 for your starting ship. If a march shows up on the Iron Fleet, then you can retreat to the Port at Lannisport, where you can continually raid any attempt at Greyjoy fleet support with impunity. If Greyjoy doesn't try to smash the Lannister fleet, then you can continually raid their ship support and force them to split up if they want to do something.

If a March doesn't show up on the Iron Fleet, use the Raven to change the fleet action to raid to counter any Greyjoy attempts at raiding or support.

2. Move the footman from Stoney Sept to Harrenhal.

3. Special Order consolidate in Lannisport and muster another knight (or siege tower if you want Riverrun for sure!).

You are ahead of Greyjoy in total strength even if a mustering comes up and can raid any attempt at support from the sea with your navy. Greyjoy likely has access to very few special orders as well if he's holding out for Damphair and won't be likely to rise on the Court track if a Clash comes up.

4a. (no muster drawn) Play Special March +1 in Lannisport, Raid in the sea, and Special Raid in Harrenhal (to remove any defence orders). Switch one of the Raids using the Raven with a Special Support +1 order if you can afford it (either the ship or the footman). With a +1 March Knight/Knight/Footman in Lannisport, a Footman/Ship +1 Support, you have 8 strength. If you were gutsy and went for the Siege Tower, you have 10! Even if somehow you cannot place a support, you have 6 (8) and should be able to deny at least some ship support to Greyjoy land forces (even if you had to hole up in port you should be able to raid the surrounding sea), who can at best manage 3 (the Knight/Footman stack) + 1 (another Footman) +1 (if he split his ships, but this may not be likely) +1 (Valyrian) = 6, which is still beatable if you took the Siege Tower option. Play Gregor Clegane; Greyjoy's best defenders cannot avoid all casualties and an early game bloodying will give you the edge you need for further battles.

4b. (muster) You have even more options here. Add another ship and change the Footman in Lannisport to a third Knight, and muster another Footman in Harrenhal or upgrade to Siege Tower. Either way you have an overwhelming force that can take Riverrun. Note that if a muster was drawn, Greyjoy may decide to go after Lannisport if he has control of the sea, but if you were able to crush Riverrun, retaking Lannisport and bloodying the remaining Greyjoy forces even further is easily doable. This may be costly though if Greyjoy forced your ship into port earlier and thus take the ship from you, but hey, no war is ever completely free from risk.

You may want to use Tywin for Riverrun and save Gregor Clegane for retaking Lannisport, but I'd rather have the guaranteed casualties on Riverrun and bet that Greyjoy will likely ask for some breathing room.

I feel this opening has the fewest number of holes in it, but let me know if I've missed anything. Trying to hold both Lannisport and take Riverrun at the same time is tricky but I think it's still doable for the Lannisters. Greyjoy cannot use any special orders on turn 1 (at least if you're playing five players), so they definitely cannot out-muster you at the opening.

I feel G. Clegane is the best leader for an early battle against Greyjoy; taking one or two units off Greyjoy early is needed to blunt his bite and teach him not to mess with the lions, although you may prefer the power tokens afforded by Tywin, or alternately, you may want to go Footman heavy and use Kevan so as not to burn your best leaders early. The key again behind the strategy is to exploit the Messenger Raven, Special Orders, plus the fact Lannister acts first.

 

But again, this strategy is only if you want Riverrun and must have it early. Personally I feel Riverrun makes a better bargaining chip with either Stark or Greyjoy. Lannister can easily surround Riverrun at any time and apply some serious pressure on the holder in favour of the other northern power, so using it as a bargaining chip can make either northern player play a little nicer.

Also, do spoiler tags work on this forum?



#42 Big Easy

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:40 AM

 Dude, spoiler alert! 



#43 retribution814

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:21 PM

Ok, I'll bite.  Lannister first turn orders and moves:

Golden Sound Support +1

Lannisport Move +0

Stoney Sept Move +1

 

Lannister first move is Kn and Fm to Stoney.

Greyjoy first move:  if fleet to golden sound, no move from Pyke.  If Kn to Riverrun and Fm to Seaguard, then Lannister counterattack 7 to 2 to take riverrun, or 6 to 2 and Fm take Harrenhal.  If Greyjoy wants Riverrun turn 1, you have to forfeit Iron Sound move, and Golden Sound is safe.

 

Lannister then moves Kn and 2 Fm to Riverrun.

 

Greyjoy MUST move Kn and Fm to Riverrun,so Seaguard is left open.  With 3 v. 6, Greyjoy would have to play Balon to win, or risk Clegane killing your army.  Riverrun taken, Lannister retreat Kn to Stoney, Fm to Harrenhal, and Fm to Seaguard.

 

Turn 2, if muster and assuming no COK, the most Greyjoy can defend with is 7 (5 in Riverrun + two ships, or 4 in River and 3 ships).  Even without a siege engine, Lannister can bring Seaguard Kn and Fm March +1; Harrenhal Kn support; Stoney Kn support +1; Lannister Fm support (additional muster point for ship in port), and Golden sound special raid, for a total of 10 v. 7 and Clegane takes out two units.  Even if no muster, still 6 v. 4 and Tywin knocks you out.  Lannister on turn 2 holds Riverrun, Harrenhal, Stoney Sept, and Lannisport.

I just don't see any inevitable Greyjoy victory here.



#44 divinityofnumber

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:30 AM

 I will posit the caveat that I am relatively new to the game, firstly. But, my group has not had a problem with Lannister being pwned. In fact, Lannister seems to be in a good position. If a good player is commanding House Stark, in a 4-player game, Greyjoy has a lot more to think about than rolling the Lannisters… 

 


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#45 Monsterberger

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

pinchergram said:

couple issues…you cannot muster a ship from seagard. Mustering from ports only.

Check the rules again.  You do NOT need a port in order to muster a ship into a friendly or empty sea area.  You only need the sea area to be adjacent to the mustering castle/stronghold.



#46 aruntisa

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:42 PM

Interesting idea of attacking the greyjoy ships. But I think it's a little hard for me to answer.



#47 ffff

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 12:46 PM

retribution814 said:

Ok, I'll bite.  Lannister first turn orders and moves:

Golden Sound Support +1

Lannisport Move +0

Stoney Sept Move +1

 

Lannister first move is Kn and Fm to Stoney.

Greyjoy first move:  if fleet to golden sound, no move from Pyke.  If Kn to Riverrun and Fm to Seaguard, then Lannister counterattack 7 to 2 to take riverrun, or 6 to 2 and Fm take Harrenhal.  If Greyjoy wants Riverrun turn 1, you have to forfeit Iron Sound move, and Golden Sound is safe.

 

Lannister then moves Kn and 2 Fm to Riverrun.

 

Greyjoy MUST move Kn and Fm to Riverrun,so Seaguard is left open.  With 3 v. 6, Greyjoy would have to play Balon to win, or risk Clegane killing your army.  Riverrun taken, Lannister retreat Kn to Stoney, Fm to Harrenhal, and Fm to Seaguard.

 

Turn 2, if muster and assuming no COK, the most Greyjoy can defend with is 7 (5 in Riverrun + two ships, or 4 in River and 3 ships).  Even without a siege engine, Lannister can bring Seaguard Kn and Fm March +1; Harrenhal Kn support; Stoney Kn support +1; Lannister Fm support (additional muster point for ship in port), and Golden sound special raid, for a total of 10 v. 7 and Clegane takes out two units.  Even if no muster, still 6 v. 4 and Tywin knocks you out.  Lannister on turn 2 holds Riverrun, Harrenhal, Stoney Sept, and Lannisport.

I just don't see any inevitable Greyjoy victory here.

You have to retreat all unit's to same area!

 

 



#48 Ambassador

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 12:25 PM

 I have not read this whole thread. I do not have the time. Balon Greyjoy's house card is the real issue. Personally I like the imbalance because it forces me to be a better player, but the thing to remember when fighting Greyjoy is to take Ironmans bay at all costs. The player who controls Ironmans bay controls the neck. As for Jaime Lannister's house card, I think the first book explains it perfectly. He is a great swordsman and a brash commander, easily tricked. Also many of the house cards do not accurately represent the character, take Mace Tyrell for example. Its simple really you only have 7 cards and they all have to fit into the one 0 two 1 two 2 one 3 and one 4 format.



#49 johnnywill

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:43 AM

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#50 bosstralia

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:51 AM

So after reading the majority of this forum, I agree that Greyjoy and Lannister are at a disadvantage when it comes to their ability to expand, but I do not think that this makes the game imballanced. I have played 2 games with 4 players, and in both games I played house baratheon (it was chosen randomly). I one one of the games, because the Stark player was not smart. But in the second game, the stark player was able to sail his ships all the way down to shipbreaker bay, and he eventually ended up winning the game. 

If some of you out there would say it was because of my incompetence, I did not make any mistake, as far as I can tell. I used Salladhor Saan to his fullest capacity, but during the next round stark used eddard stark and killed both of my ships in the narrow sea, leaving only one in East Summer Sea (I had marched my army from dragonstone down to starfall, and later yronwood). After an unlucky clash of kings card, I was 4th on the king's court influence track, and so I could not muster any mor ships, untill after stark had taken dragon stone for good. I do not see what was wrong with my tactics. I think that this is a useful strategy for the stark player, and I think it could be accomplished more often that not. This also left me crippled, and I did not get above 2 castles 'till round 6.



#51 Prince Capsicum

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

That doesn't really have much to do with the Greyjoy-Lannister problem. Baratheon in a 4-5 player game is a different matter all together. Baratheon have the advantage of being able to capture the south without any resistance.

As far as anyone knows, there is no was to solve the Greyjoy-Lannister problem without changing the board or how Lannister starts. The way I've dealt with it is I always have Greyjoy played by a very fair and seafaring person who doesn't like smashing Lannister as they are too easy. I always play as Lannister and I manage to win later on when I'm secretly gaining strength without him knowing.



#52 Eremite

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

I've been playtesting this issue a fair bit - it's damn near impossible for Lannister to win in four/five player assuming all the other players know the rules and are competent players. Four-player is especially broken, with Baratheon usually strolling to victory provided they keep Shipbreaker Bay, followed by Greyjoy who tend to come second due to favouring the Fiefdoms over the Iron Throne when it comes to bidding. We playtested the suggested 'fix' of swapping Greyjoy for Tyrell, only to watch them walk all over Baratheon (Loras is an absolute monster, and a well-used Mace and Queen of Thorns can really ruin a day) and win every time. Lannister reamined pinched, though they were able to build when I always think of as the 'fist'  - a defensive bulwark of Lannisport, Riverrun, Harrenhall, sometimes Seagard and the crucial Stony Sept (an army with a Support order here can defend nearly everywhere). The problem is they can't really risk breaking out of this fist without being taken apart. They did better without Greyjoy, but still didn't - almost couldn't- win.  

We recently got our hands on the Dance for Dragons POD expansion, however. It's a game-changer. Firstly, the Greyjoy have been weakened considerably. Balon is gone, as is Victarion's ship-boosting power. The loss of these two cards no longer guarantees a canny Greyjoy player can waltz all over Lannister. The Lannister deck is also much improved, I'd say - you have swords and towers on more than one card and you get some excellent new powers. The 0-card, Qyburn, takes the combat value and symbols (but not the special rules) of a discarded enemy card for two meagre power tokens - with a bit of timing, that gives you two 3/4 strength cards. One of their strength two cards has a variation of the old Kevan's power - raising the strength of Knights to 3, but only when attacking. It encourages more aggression. But playtesting showed us that the new decks weren't enough to prevent a Baratheon victory in four-player nine times out of ten - the Lannisters are more powerful, but the Greyjoys (weaker, true) are still on their doorstep. Tjhe new Stark deck is a little one-trick pony. It's got Ramsay Bolton (3/4 and three swords. Special rules boost him and make it easy to get him back in yuor hand by losing a fight with the 0 card, Reek) and Roose (4, one sword), giving them an excellent offense. I've not seen them take Shipbreaker bay with them, but that might be a way to break Baratheon… but it would almost certainly cost you Winterfell to an enterprising Greyjoy. 

But there may be a solution. We've started playtesting the Tyrell variant using the new cards, wwth promising results. In our first game it really was anybody's game - every faction was on equal footing in the final turn. It was a great game, too - some castles kept changing hands. The Lannisters actually took Winterfell, which is something I'd not even seen in three-player. The new Tyrell deck is less aggressive, especially without Loras, and has one incredible defensive card (albeit of limited use) and the Queen of Thorns who is now value 1 and removes the opponent's special rule. This works out more defensive, as their nearest neighbours are Baratheon. Their new deck is really shockingly nasty, but very, very situational and reliant on special rules, meaning these two play very well against each other. 

We'll be running a few more playtests, but I'm hopeful that we may actually have balanced the game. 



#53 kizigame

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:12 AM

I find this forum is useful for game lover,and i will come everyday.



#54 Silvaire

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:06 AM

Hi, I registered on these forums just to post on this thread.

 

My gaming group played the first edition of this game addictively for years after it came out.  Probably played it around 50 times.  However, the problem with Lannister was very real, and while some would argue that this makes for "exciting role-playing" or encourages diplomacy, nobody in our group thought it was fun, both to have Lannister in the game, or to play Lannister. 

Since I loved this game, I collaborated with a friend of mine on trying an assortment of house rules over the years to see if we could fix this game in a somewhat elegant fashion without going as drastic as redesiging house cards and territory boundaries.   We got close, but it was never enough. 

The game as it stands is fundamentally flawed, and I say that as a person whom loves this game and always champions it.  I say this in the hopes that FFG will actually delve into the issue and fix it.  I'm not a game developer, I don't like having to try to fix games after the fact, and I am more than willing to pay $ to have it fixed. 

I did so with the second edition.  I had super high hopes that they addressed the Lannister-Greyjoy issue.  Unfortunately, they did not.  I played the second edition only 3 times but it was readily apparent that all the new rules coalsced together to create a very similar Lannister experience to the first game.  The only material difference I've seen is that Greyjoy no longer has a strong contention for winning, and it is almost embarassing how the second edition passed quality control at FFG with regard to Baratheon's now dominating advantages.

Please fix this game, and not with a scenario (I think that is a cop-out).  Either fix the map, tweak the core rules, or errata some stuff.  As it stands now, we haven't played this game in about 3-4 years besides trying the second edition, and a LITTLE bit of attention to fixing the flaw of this game would go a long way in revitalizing interest in this game.



#55 Joeyk1985

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 05:21 AM

raiden14 said:

there are two variant solutions to increase balance in the 4 player game.

first one is to simply switch greyjoy with tyrell like in the original first edition

second one is to block Sunspear, Yronwood, Princes Pass, Three Towers and Oldtown so the Baratheon can´t expand so much into the south areas and is forced to clash with other powers but still have a chance to get some areas by the sea.

or you can use ToB cards to help the neutral forces. it dependes on you gaming groups…

 

Could you plz provide the details of the tyrell variant ?

Are there official setup rules ?

What areas are completely closed off or have Neutral armies ?!?

Thanks



#56 abm

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:22 AM

I find it strange that this is being discussed so little, but after 3 games with Lannister I think I can see some clear disadvantages it has, not only compared to Greyjoy but to everyone else: Lannister house cards suck.

Not in terms of combat power, mind you, they have the same numbers as everyone else, but in terms of abilities:

- Cersei has 0 power, yet her ability is conditioned on winning the fight. Well how often can you expect to win the fight by playing a 0 card?! (Especially while using the ToB cards, which my group does.) Maybe once every 3 games? Next to useless. I can't name a single time I've seen this card's ability activated in the 5-6 games I've played so far.

- Tyrion is pretty much only able to block your opponent from using their highest card in hand. Anything else and your best move will typically be to leave their card alone for fear of escalation. With only a power of 1 on your card, this will rarely mean you can gain any combat points on your opponent, most of the time it will just help you cut your losses (get attacked with a 3 instead of a 4, a 2 instead of a 3 etc. - most combinations don't give you any combat advantage with your measly 1 combat point). Not so useless, but still disappointing - feels like a perpetual loser's card.

- Kevan (the most broken of all) doubles the (already small!) power of your footmen once every 7 fights and that's only if you're exactly in the right kind of situation to initiate an attack with enough participating footmen every 7 fights. In order to do this, you pretty much have to squander your supplies and keep around weak armies of footmen for all other 6 out of every 7 fights (when Kevan is discarded), while enemies at the same supply level as you will have happily recruited knights and siege engines instead and will be using them to devastating effect. This card's ability is a catastrophe of bad design. Trying to use it hurts you more than it helps you, you're better off just ignoring the text on the card.

 

How I would fix the Lannister deck:

- Switch Cersei and Tyrion's abilities. (Both characters use trickery, manipulation and politics in the story, so this should pose no problem.) Tyrion, with his combat power of 1, will be in a somewhat better position to satisfy the "if you win" condition at least some of the time so that the "remove an order from anywhere" ability will no longer be quite so useless.

- Cersei gains the rather disappointing ability to force the enemy to switch their card for any of their others, but now is in an even worse position to benefit from that as she has 0 combat power. This ability needs its own fix: make it force the enemy to switch the first card they've played for another card with strictly lower combat power (or no card at all if a lower-powered one is not available). In most cases this will have the same effect as before - it will prohibit the use of the highest-powered card in hand - but in some other cases it will be clearly better:

* If the enemy for some reason tries to play something other than their best card - probably for its ability - they can now be prevented from doing that without fear of combat power escalation.
* If the enemy tries to use their weakest card at any point, they can be blocked from using any card at all for that combat (whereas before this was only possible if they were down to their last card - a rather narrow window of opportunity that doesn't necessarily sync up with a fight with Lannister). This is a brilliant side-effect because it extends Lannister's ability to slow down Greyjoy's card cycle, which is a bit faster than others due to Aeron. So this would also help specifically with the problem of Lannister-Greyjoy balance.

- Finally, correct Kevan's ability so that it adds +1 power to all participating Lannister knights, not footmen, and this should solve the supply-wasting problem I described above, not to mention it would be a better fit for Kevan's depiction on the card, where he's shown holding the reins of a horse. :P

Any thoughts?



#57 Sprawl

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:18 PM

We've had issues with Lannister with the first few games. However, it was always because Lannister and Greyjoy were getting in a neverending war because of their proximity. Now, With a few games under out belt, Lannister and greyjoy don't fight as much as they used to do. I think the problem is that Lannister are harder to play and since they are closer to more people, playing with over-aggressive/new players usually makes for a hard lannister game.



#58 Joeyk1985

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 12:59 AM

abm said:

I find it strange that this is being discussed so little, but after 3 games with Lannister I think I can see some clear disadvantages it has, not only compared to Greyjoy but to everyone else: Lannister house cards suck.

Not in terms of combat power, mind you, they have the same numbers as everyone else, but in terms of abilities:

- Cersei has 0 power, yet her ability is conditioned on winning the fight. Well how often can you expect to win the fight by playing a 0 card?! (Especially while using the ToB cards, which my group does.) Maybe once every 3 games? Next to useless. I can't name a single time I've seen this card's ability activated in the 5-6 games I've played so far.

- Tyrion is pretty much only able to block your opponent from using their highest card in hand. Anything else and your best move will typically be to leave their card alone for fear of escalation. With only a power of 1 on your card, this will rarely mean you can gain any combat points on your opponent, most of the time it will just help you cut your losses (get attacked with a 3 instead of a 4, a 2 instead of a 3 etc. - most combinations don't give you any combat advantage with your measly 1 combat point). Not so useless, but still disappointing - feels like a perpetual loser's card.

- Kevan (the most broken of all) doubles the (already small!) power of your footmen once every 7 fights and that's only if you're exactly in the right kind of situation to initiate an attack with enough participating footmen every 7 fights. In order to do this, you pretty much have to squander your supplies and keep around weak armies of footmen for all other 6 out of every 7 fights (when Kevan is discarded), while enemies at the same supply level as you will have happily recruited knights and siege engines instead and will be using them to devastating effect. This card's ability is a catastrophe of bad design. Trying to use it hurts you more than it helps you, you're better off just ignoring the text on the card.

 

How I would fix the Lannister deck:

- Switch Cersei and Tyrion's abilities. (Both characters use trickery, manipulation and politics in the story, so this should pose no problem.) Tyrion, with his combat power of 1, will be in a somewhat better position to satisfy the "if you win" condition at least some of the time so that the "remove an order from anywhere" ability will no longer be quite so useless.

- Cersei gains the rather disappointing ability to force the enemy to switch their card for any of their others, but now is in an even worse position to benefit from that as she has 0 combat power. This ability needs its own fix: make it force the enemy to switch the first card they've played for another card with strictly lower combat power (or no card at all if a lower-powered one is not available). In most cases this will have the same effect as before - it will prohibit the use of the highest-powered card in hand - but in some other cases it will be clearly better:

* If the enemy for some reason tries to play something other than their best card - probably for its ability - they can now be prevented from doing that without fear of combat power escalation.
* If the enemy tries to use their weakest card at any point, they can be blocked from using any card at all for that combat (whereas before this was only possible if they were down to their last card - a rather narrow window of opportunity that doesn't necessarily sync up with a fight with Lannister). This is a brilliant side-effect because it extends Lannister's ability to slow down Greyjoy's card cycle, which is a bit faster than others due to Aeron. So this would also help specifically with the problem of Lannister-Greyjoy balance.

- Finally, correct Kevan's ability so that it adds +1 power to all participating Lannister knights, not footmen, and this should solve the supply-wasting problem I described above, not to mention it would be a better fit for Kevan's depiction on the card, where he's shown holding the reins of a horse. :P

Any thoughts?

 

wow i would love to see those fixes, they definitely give a kick for lannisters…

however if u switch tyrion with cersei, his combat strength will be zero and as u mentionned the opponent will be forced to play his zero card or nothing which makes it more like balon greyjoy….



#59 abm

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:38 AM

No it doesn't, it just improves its power a bit. If you have 3 or more cards in hand you are guaranteed to be able to play one of them and if they're anything other than 1-1-0 or 2-2-0 you will not be reduced to 0. Also, if you have 2 cards left and neither is your 0 you will still be able to use some combat power against Lannister, so again not reduced to 0. Like I said, in most cases it still has the same effects as the current Tyrion card - it prevents you from playing your highest card - but is still far from Balon's power of always reducing you to exactly 0.

And I didn't say the Tyrion and Cersei characters should switch places, only their abilities. It would be wrong to give Cersei a power of 1 as a military commander while Tyrion has 0 of the same. :) No, the characters stay where they are, they only switch abilities (and then Cersei's new ability gets corrected a bit to account for her lack of military power).



#60 Verya

Verya

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 01:04 AM

I agree with the Jamie house card being underpowered. With my mates, we place one castle icon on that house card so Jamie is 2 + 1 sword + 1 castle

About Lannister +  Greyjoy balance problem: I think it is basically is balanced depending on strategy and chance. I think its an even fight if you manage to anticipate what the other player will do. Lannister raid order in golden sound or lannisport is a must if you want to survive. At first hand, if I see Greyjoy has a march order on the sea, I use the raven to put a march order in the golden sound to pull my ship back to lannisport. This way I can prevent my ship from being destroyed without using and housecards, and ensure that Greyjoy can get no support from golden sound. With this strategy I also move my footman from Stoney Sept to Harrenhal, to muster with Special Consolidate Power. 

I think with the Messenger Raven Lannister can adjust his strategy to counter Greyjoy's movements and with the 3 special orders Lannister is able to place, he can even the odds with special consolidate power mustering. However I do accept that Lannister can get absolutely crushed if he's unlucky or has made a mistake, whereas Greyjoy will not be destroyed even if he makes a mistake or loses a battle. What I'm trying to say is that consequence of winning and losing is not the same. (But the chances of winning and losing are about the same.)  This is why it seems unbalanced I think. 






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