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HELP with Lannister in 2nd Edition!!!


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#61 vendredi

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

 My preference would be yes, to go east towards Cracklaw Point, but I hesitate to make too strong a recommendation. Every game is different with a lot of variables to consider. Some games the Greyjoy player will hate your guts and you're gonna have to slug it out (which I still think is a poor idea on Greyjoy's part). Some games you'll be able to have a pretty good run of non-interference from Greyjoy. Obviously you'll lose if two or more players decide to gang up on you... but really this goes for any faction.

The key thing to remember is that Lannister can access and support nearly every player on the map, so you gotta do some wheeling and dealing. You're easily the decisive factor in a Stark/Greyjoy conflict and the Baratheon/Martell/Tyrell slugfest in the south. Remember that supports don't require adjacency with the troops you're supporting, just with the battle zone. You can intervene for whichever House is going to give you the better deal... or perhaps backstab. Since you have a lot of fronts, it's in your interest to keep your assistance limited to support only - if you try to intervene everywhere you'll burn through your leaders very fast and get confronted with some very bad situations.

There's also some weird ways you can offer assistance sometimes. In my last game Greyjoy was down to Theon Greyjoy in his hand and facing a very brutal Stark counterattack. I sent a single ship from the Golden Sound in a piddly attack and dropped Cersei, letting Greyjoy win with Theon, which allowed him to replenish his hand of leaders. He was very thankful that I was able to refresh his hand against Stark.

If you don't already, I really recommend having a pencil and note paper handy during your sessions. Try to break up alliances, let players know you'll support their backstab attempts, etc. etc.

That being said, you can survive perfectly well on 3 mustering points. Most other Houses only have three muster points within easy reach (at least if you're playing with 6 - I'm sorely tempted to remove Dornish territories in a 5 player game, the garrisons barely do anything to hold off the southern players). The only really crucial thing you need to do to protect Lannisport is to keep a fleet-in-being in the Golden Sound. All land approaches to Lannisport are generally within your area of influence, and you've got a 2 strength garrison to start with, so it's invasion from the sea that you need to watch for. You don't need to keep too big an army sitting on Lannisport.

Since Lannister tends to start high on the King's Court track they can afford to place down Special Consolidate Orders from the beginning - Riverrun makes an excellent, if a little unsafe position to do this since it lacks any crowns. Lannisport is much safer but you are missing out on the 2 power tokens you could gain instead, which may hurt you in the long run. 



#62 Don Pedro MCh

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:22 PM

I think next game i will choose Lannister [we normaly draw houses at random, but as Lannister is tough to play i hope to trade afterwards :P ] and try to let the Riverrun go if the Greyjoy will take it and focus on the center of the map. I'll post afterwards how it all went : )



#63 Prince Capsicum

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 07:06 PM

 I think the reason Lannister is so threatened by Greyjoy is so the Lannister player has to play like a Lannister.

Using your words and manipulation to convince the Greyjoy player to fight Stark in return for the seas around Lannisport. 

Further more, the Lannister player is the only player that can support every house around them against another house!

Plus you could always backstab everyone on turn ten to steal those undefended castles (it's what I love doing). Go House Lannister!



#64 Verya

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:41 PM

vendredi said:

Long-time lurker who finally managed to pick up a copy of 2nd edition for myself. I've been following discussions of the "Lannister weakness" here and on BGG, but it doesn't really ring true to me after looking at the game...

From the "theme" standpoint, I actually think the Lannister position is quite faithful to the first book. Remember that:

{SPOILERS FOR BOOK 1)

 

 

1. Cersei bribes the gold cloaks to take King's Landing but the actual number of Lannister swords in the city is very small.

2. Tywin is furious with Joffrey for executing Ned, because the Lannisters are caught between Baratheon-Tyrell and Stark in the North and fighting on two fronts. He dispatches Tyrion with a real Lannister force to try and hold King's Landing.

3. Lannister loses every proper Stark engagement save for the feint by Bolton, which puts paid the notion that the gold of Casterly Rock somehow enables the Lannisters to fight any better than the northmen.

4. Balon Greyjoy decides to go after Stark rather than much richer Lannister due to a personal grudge against the Starks.

 

 

 

{SPOILERS END HERE}

So really, the book Lannisters aren't really all that more powerful than they're represented on the board game. They're just very lucky and very good at politicking - both of which are adequately represented by their positions on the Influence tracks: lousy on Fiefdoms, best at the King's Court, and second best on the Throne.

 

Now, from the game balance perspective...

Karl M said:

So we did many scenarios in which the Greyjoy tried to take Riverrun and saw that it was impossible for the Lannister player to counter in any way. We spent a couple of hours trying to see if somehow we were wrong but it seems we are not. This is by not applying the new Battle cards systems. It all because of the Aeron Damphair card that let you see the opponent card and for the cost 2 power token makes you changed the card ( but Aeron is discarded) Combined with the +1 the Valyrian blade it gives no chance to the Lannister player.

 

While Damphair allows the Greyjoy player to dictate the outcome of every battle, 2 power does hurt! Also, Lannister can dictate the strategic situation so long as they hold the Messenger Raven - they can change orders. If Greyjoy holds 2 power in order to use the Damphair, they're unlikely to gain on the King's Court Track and likely will not have special orders. I think the combination of special orders, the Raven, plus the fact that Lannister will act before Greyjoy makes them very deadly and hardly a pushover. The key is to use the Raven to change key orders from raids to support, and staying ahead of Greyjoy in turn order - both easy to do if Greyjoy must conserve power for Aeron.

Here is my proposed: "Riverrun or Bust" Lannister opening:

1. March -1 for your starting ship. If a march shows up on the Iron Fleet, then you can retreat to the Port at Lannisport, where you can continually raid any attempt at Greyjoy fleet support with impunity. If Greyjoy doesn't try to smash the Lannister fleet, then you can continually raid their ship support and force them to split up if they want to do something.

If a March doesn't show up on the Iron Fleet, use the Raven to change the fleet action to raid to counter any Greyjoy attempts at raiding or support.

2. Move the footman from Stoney Sept to Harrenhal.

3. Special Order consolidate in Lannisport and muster another knight (or siege tower if you want Riverrun for sure!).

You are ahead of Greyjoy in total strength even if a mustering comes up and can raid any attempt at support from the sea with your navy. Greyjoy likely has access to very few special orders as well if he's holding out for Damphair and won't be likely to rise on the Court track if a Clash comes up. 

4a. (no muster drawn) Play Special March +1 in Lannisport, Raid in the sea, and Special Raid in Harrenhal (to remove any defence orders). Switch one of the Raids using the Raven with a Special Support +1 order if you can afford it (either the ship or the footman). With a +1 March Knight/Knight/Footman in Lannisport, a Footman/Ship +1 Support, you have 8 strength. If you were gutsy and went for the Siege Tower, you have 10! Even if somehow you cannot place a support, you have 6 (8) and should be able to deny at least some ship support to Greyjoy land forces (even if you had to hole up in port you should be able to raid the surrounding sea), who can at best manage 3 (the Knight/Footman stack) + 1 (another Footman) +1 (if he split his ships, but this may not be likely) +1 (Valyrian) = 6, which is still beatable if you took the Siege Tower option. Play Gregor Clegane; Greyjoy's best defenders cannot avoid all casualties and an early game bloodying will give you the edge you need for further battles.

4b. (muster) You have even more options here. Add another ship and change the Footman in Lannisport to a third Knight, and muster another Footman in Harrenhal or upgrade to Siege Tower. Either way you have an overwhelming force that can take Riverrun. Note that if a muster was drawn, Greyjoy may decide to go after Lannisport if he has control of the sea, but if you were able to crush Riverrun, retaking Lannisport and bloodying the remaining Greyjoy forces even further is easily doable. This may be costly though if Greyjoy forced your ship into port earlier and thus take the ship from you, but hey, no war is ever completely free from risk.

You may want to use Tywin for Riverrun and save Gregor Clegane for retaking Lannisport, but I'd rather have the guaranteed casualties on Riverrun and bet that Greyjoy will likely ask for some breathing room.

I feel this opening has the fewest number of holes in it, but let me know if I've missed anything. Trying to hold both Lannisport and take Riverrun at the same time is tricky but I think it's still doable for the Lannisters. Greyjoy cannot use any special orders on turn 1 (at least if you're playing five players), so they definitely cannot out-muster you at the opening.

I feel G. Clegane is the best leader for an early battle against Greyjoy; taking one or two units off Greyjoy early is needed to blunt his bite and teach him not to mess with the lions, although you may prefer the power tokens afforded by Tywin, or alternately, you may want to go Footman heavy and use Kevan so as not to burn your best leaders early. The key again behind the strategy is to exploit the Messenger Raven, Special Orders, plus the fact Lannister acts first.

 

But again, this strategy is only if you want Riverrun and must have it early. Personally I feel Riverrun makes a better bargaining chip with either Stark or Greyjoy. Lannister can easily surround Riverrun at any time and apply some serious pressure on the holder in favour of the other northern power, so using it as a bargaining chip can make either northern player play a little nicer.

Also, do spoiler tags work on this forum?

This probably was one of the single most useful posts here. Its a solid strategy my lord, I humbly bow before you. I will try this next game as Lannister.

We played a four man game yesterday which got me thinking about this. Around turn 4-5 Lannister was completely obliterated by Greyjoy. Which got me thinking Greyjoy is overpowered and Lannister is the underdog. Here's how it went down:

Lannister consolidated power in lannisport, his ship in the golden sound was defeated by attacking victarion greyjoy, tides of battle destroyed the lannister's only ship. Lannister rushed for Riverrun, while Greyjoy went for Seagard.

Second turn Muster Card is revealed. Lannister musters one ship and rest on land, Greyjoy deploys two ships and rest on land. Greyjoy keeps 3 ships in sea area around pyke always with a +1 support, and one in Golden sound with a raid. Having focused on power (since he has no special tokens) Greyjoy is able to rise to top in all influence tracks. (Myself Baratheon and Stark were busy taking fortresses in our spheres) At turn 4, with the help of his ships, Greyjoy takes over Riverrun. One having lost one of his two territories with supply on it, Lannister is forced to destroy both of his defending units in Riverrun since he cannot have 4 land units in one area. Greyjoy continues to take over Lannisport and kick Lannister from the game. So it was a literally 1 on 1 between Lannister and Greyjoy and Lannister was steamrolled. 

This happened one more time yesterday. In my opinion, while every other house can afford to make mistakes in the first few turns and survive and contend for the game, Lannister (against Greyjoy) cannot afford to make mistakes. Its way to easy and simple for Greyjoy to overwhelm Lannister. I'm not saying Lannister cant survive, but he needs to plan out everything very carefully and anticipate every Greyjoy move. I'm  leaving out diplomatic options out of this since all houses should be able to survive 1 on 1 early game, without aid or alliance from other players. 

It is doable to survive and contend for Lannister but I do not think its fair. It should be fair. Not equal, but fair. Balancing problem. Will take Lannister myself next time and try out efidm's strategy. If with variations it does not work out against equally experienced Greyjoy, I will call in some of the House rules suggested here.

 



#65 Papule

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 01:00 PM

Greyjoy has 2 adventage with boat: they start with 2 boat, and can have a devastative attack. One thing I've seem is the Lannister securing a defensive position on land, build 2 ships and attacks the greyjoy fleet if there is no muster, cutting of Pyke from the mainland and leaving it very  easy to take (in fact you could probably take it the same turn.)

I've though about the 3 castle + pyke move and even if I think it's quite good and will probably try it next time I play Pyke I there is no freaking way it is unstopable… you have no support at all… if stark as a +1 move on winterfell he can retake moat calin and kill your unit or decide where it retreats. If you spread instead on seagart and riverun and lannister happens to have a move +1 on lannisport or Stony sept he could retake riverun. 

Also i'd tell you that Cersei is a really good card seriously you just have to know how to bargain with it, it's the only way to remove a march token… and I've used it every game, and it was very usefull for me or for my ally.

I like the lannister in the game Gregor can litteraly wipe out an army, Kevan can make a footman the strongest army ever if you have enough supply for shitloads of footman.  Their starting position is difficult when the tyrel are there but if you manage to make a alliance with either tyrel, stark or better greyjoy you can do great deeds… without any alliance well… how much time do you think the starks can hold to a baratheon greyjoy attack? Or the Baratheon to a Martell Stark attack of the Greyjoy to a Lannister Stark attack? Or the Tyrel to a Lannister Martel attack ? Not long. Every faction is stuck in this game the lannister are not worst then any other.



#66 Tyrion Lannister

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:49 AM

A lot of these Lannister strategies suggest using Kevan Lannister's ability of increasing the strength of footmen to 2 for an attack.  Please keep in mind that Kevan's card clearly states that this ability only works for DEFENDING, not ATTACKING.  Victarion Greyjoy's ability is so much better because he does not have any restriction like this.

It does seem like the Lannister House Cards are weak in comparison to others like the Greyjoys.  Victarion and Balon have very powerful abilities.



#67 Ghaundan

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 05:01 PM

A lot of these Lannister strategies suggest using Kevan Lannister's ability of increasing the strength of footmen to 2 for an attack.  Please keep in mind that Kevan's card clearly states that this ability only works for DEFENDING, not ATTACKING.  Victarion Greyjoy's ability is so much better because he does not have any restriction like this.

It does seem like the Lannister House Cards are weak in comparison to others like the Greyjoys.  Victarion and Balon have very powerful abilities.

 

Sorry for thread necro but it's not like there's alot of new threads on this forum anyway.

 

Strange, as his card reads as following "f you are attacking, all of your participating Footman (including supporting Lannister footmen) add +2 combat strength instead of +1".

 

Also, diplomacy is all well and good but if other players refuse to play ball it feels sad that the Lannisters can do nothing. Does anyone know a good fix? Are the expansion cards worth it to mix things up?






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