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questn about threat of the north


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#1 Musketeer_peri

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 04:38 AM

if i play "threat of the north" plot in part to draw 3 card's and then discard 3 card's, can i play "for R'hollor" befor do discarding?

for example. i play threat from the north  in 1st part : draw 3 card and i have 5 in my hand , goes to 8 in my hand, then i play that response and i keep 4 card's, after that i discard more 3 and i keep only 1 card in my hand, is it possible?

thank you!



#2 Saturnine

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 07:47 AM

First of all, the plot you're talking about is Threat from the East.

And no, things don't work like that. Every effect fully resolves before you get the chance to respond to it (for more details on the game's timing structure -- and everything else -- check out the FAQ; link is in my signature).

So you first resolve the plot effect, drawing and discarding as applicable, and then you have the opportunity to play a response such as For R'hllor.



#3 Musketeer_peri

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:14 AM

i ask that becouse therat from the east are resolve in 2 step. and Rholls play on 1st step. after discard i am not sure if i can play R'holls becouse we have pass draw card's and will be resolve in discard. then Rholl's ability is lost " Response: when draw a card"...

Where can i find that answer ? (by rulebook)



#4 Saturnine

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:44 AM

You're confusing some steps there. Really take some time to understand the timing flow charts (again, those are found in the FAQ), because once you understand when everything happens in the game, it'll be so much easier to resolve questions that come up during play. It may take some time, but it's worth it.

Resolving the "when revealed" effect of Threat from the East initiates in step 1. Step 2 is for cancel responses. If no cancel is played, the when revealed effect resolves in step 3 of the action window.

Up until this point, there's no place to play For R'hllor. The place to play a "Response:" effect like For R'hllor is always in step 5 of an action window, after the action to which it responds has fully resolved. Only save and cancel responses (those with the words "save" or "cancel" in their text) can interrupt the resolution of an effect. Normal responses need to wait until the action has resolved. All responses are played during step 5, and all Responses played here can respond to anything that happened previously in the action window. The action window doesn't close until all players have no more Responses they want to play. So after the "when revealed" effect of Threat from the East fully resolved (i.e. all player have drawn/discarded cards according to the effect), only then do you get to respond to the trigger "After an opponent draws..." If at that point your opponent does not have more than 4 cards in hand, you're better of playing For R'hllor at some other time. But there's no way for you to "squeeze in" For R'hllor during the resolution of Threat from the East.



#5 Musketeer_peri

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 08:40 AM

now you say that, i understand. but i have one more question now.

if i have maester wentamyr is in game and play valar morghulis as when reveald effect, maester wentamyr save another character and he die , also maeser Wendamyr has 3 chain upon it, that chain can do resposes after  Wendamyr death?

And if i have 2 or more influence,and that do 2-3 times ventamyr's respose, how many times resolve the responses from chain's?

 

thank you!

 



#6 Saturnine

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 09:11 AM

This relates to another important concept from the FAQ, the moribund state. When a card leaves play (gets killed, discarded, or moved to another out-of-play area like your deck or hand), it enters the so-called moribund state. That means the card stays on the table until the action window in which it was removed from play closes; card effects can already respond as if it had properly left play, but you can still use card abilities on that card or use that card to pay for costs.

Another thing I want to point out that I think you misunderstood is that Wendamyr's ability let's you kneel 2 influence to stand the character you saved, not Wendamyr (unless you used his ability to save himself) - so you will never be able to use his ability more than 2 times during a single action window.

So let's go through this step by step. Case #1 - Wendamyr dies:

Step 1: The "when revealed" effect of Valar Morghulis initiates

Step 2: Opportunity for save and cancel responses. You kneel Maester Wendamyr to save another character.

Step 3: The "when revealed" effect of Valar Morghulis resolves and Maester Wendamyr is killed. He is now moribund (= on the way out, but still on the table).

Step 4: Any passives triggered by any of the above events resolve. The chain attachments on Maester Wendamyr are discarded as a result of him being removed from play. The attachments become moribund.

Step 5: Responses. You have the opportunity to trigger the Response effects on the chain attachments (in response to Maester Wendamyr kneeling in step 2). You can trigger each chain's ability once.

Step 6. Maester Wendamyr is placed on the dead pile and the chain attachments are placed on the discard pile. The action window closes.

 

Case #2 - Wendamyr saves himself and another character.

Step 1: The "when revealed" effect of Valar Morghulis initiates

Step 2: Opportunity for save and cancel responses. You kneel Maester Wendamyr to save himself, then you kneel 2 influence to stand him. Because standing him is part of his save ability, he can now be knelt again to pay for the cost of his ability a second time, saving another character.

Step 3: The "when revealed" effect of Valar Morghulis resolves. Any characters not saved are killed and become moribund.

Step 4: Any passives triggered by any of the above events resolve.

Step 5: Responses. You have the opportunity to trigger the Response effects on the chain attachments (in response to Maester Wendamyr kneeling in step 2). You can trigger each chain's ability once.

Step 6. Any moribund cards are now moved to their destinations and the action window closes.



#7 Khudzlin

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:17 PM

Would you get to use each chain twice if their effects weren't limited to once per phase, as Wendamyr knelt twice?



#8 ktom

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 04:27 PM

Khudzlin said:

Would you get to use each chain twice if their effects weren't limited to once per phase, as Wendamyr knelt twice?
Yes. Each kneeling is a separate Response trigger. It's like an effect that lets you draw 3 cards creates 3 separate "after you draw a card" triggers - giving a single Response effect 3 separate opportunities to be used.



#9 Zulla

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:49 PM

That's wild. I just played a game where that came up. I thought once Wendy saves himself and stands that's the first part of the sequence, and whomever he is trying to save (after saving himself) would be dead since they died while Wendy was saving himself. So in essence, if I have 6 influence, I can stand and save 3 character all within one window? seems a bit much.



#10 ktom

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:19 PM

So in essence, if I have 6 influence, I can stand and save 3 character all within one window? seems a bit much.

 

That's not going to be true. When you use Wendamyr's ability and kneel 2 influence for the standing portion, it is the saved character that stands, not Wendamyr himself -- unless he happens to be the saved character. So the most you're ever going to get out of Wendamyr in a mass-kill is 2 saves, himself and one other character. And that assumed the first character he tries to save is himself.



#11 Grimwalker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:57 PM

Which is not to say Greyjoy doesn't have a bucket of other save effects to make Valar a completely one-sided affair.



#12 Khudzlin

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:59 PM

No longer, with Harrenhal.



#13 Grimwalker

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:21 AM

hear hear.



#14 ktom

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:46 AM

~ Yeah, because GJ has no options when it comes to location control and cancel of its own.

They have to work harder for it (definitely a good thing), but even with Harrenhal, a GJ Valar can still be pretty one-sided.



#15 Grimwalker

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:54 PM

It's not so much Power Creep as it is the Red Queen's Race.






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