Jump to content



Photo

Macharian Handbook: An Acolyte's Guide to the Galaxy of Guns


  • Please log in to reply
136 replies to this topic

#41 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:25 PM

Sorry for the 2nd post, but could you also add "Mono Arrows/Quarrels"? Basically either +2 Pen or Turn Pen to 3, similar cost to manstoppers.

Also, Autocannon shells need a pricing. What about the rarer larger caliber ammo? Tranter .54 rounds (which is based off the .50 AE of the Desert Eagle I presume), should cost more than the ammo size of a stub automatic (which I would estimate as something like .40 S&W, 9mm for Autopistols and prolly 10mm or such for the 1d10+4 pistols). A friend of mine made an incredibly comprehensive real ammo damage scaling for pistols and rifles for a DH homebrew, but that would way too complex to use in any normal way.

A friend asked me to ask these for him:

1. Why are Bolt Shells still so costly?

2. Does the quality of whatever you attach with the melee talent carry over? Such as a BQ mono knife = BQ mono spear?



#42 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:48 PM

 Good point about the autocannon (and assault cannon, now that I think about it!) ammo pricing. I'll add that to the 1.1 to-do list.

Some autoguns and stubbers are variously described as using larger or smaller caliber bullets, but BI/FFG never figured to quantify these with a price. Aside from the Tranter, the Armageddon autogun comes to mind as being specifically described as such. Presumably whatever cost differentials go into making these heavier rounds get absorbed by the mass availability of caseless or stub ammo in general and so there's no real difference at market value.

Bolts are expensive, this is a known quantity in 40k. The ammo itself is what makes bolt weapons such uncommon pieces as a boltgun itself is a relatively uncomplicated weapon, even if it does require more tender loving words to make its machine spirit happy. The fact that bolts are so much more complex and have lots of small parts inside them, not to mention an impact-triggered warhead with a delay fuse, means that usually only forces with very strong logistical support, like the Imperial Guard or a Space Marine chapter can actually supply bolters in the field accordingly.

All I did was split off the standard caliber bolts vs. the heavy-duty ones used for heavy bolters. Didn't really make much sense to be paying the same price for both when the second ones are so monstrously more powerful. Likewise, acolytes in a military environment would be able to easily find bolts for a heavy bolter owing to the fact that they're attached to a ton of Imperial Guard vehicles, but "standard"-size ones would be much less common there since now you're basically looking at the personal sidearms of officers and regimental commissars - both of whom I imagine wouldn't be apt to just cough the things up freely.



#43 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 27 July 2012 - 08:23 AM

Oh yeah, I am a fan of splitting them up like you did for the bolts. I do wish the heavier caliber guns cost more than the normal ones though, especially handcannons/heavy stubbers.

Do you have any idea about the quality of the melee weapon used in the attachment affecting the "total" craftsmanship of the weapon used in melee.



#44 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 28 July 2012 - 09:03 AM

 Bolts are expensive, sure, but under the rules as written, one bolt shell, 15 Thrones, costs as much as 450 bullets. They shouldn't be THAT expensive. A melta canister is the same price for an entire magazine.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#45 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:51 PM

Have you ever noticed how almost no organizations outside of the Space Marines and Sisters of Battle actually use bolters?

You can see them on a few Arbitrators or Storm Troopers, but by and large there's no bolters in regular use by anyone. Officers and other elites will sometimes carry bolt *pistols*, but that's all. Meanwhile, many vehicles are virtually festooned with heavy bolters…

Giving that bolt weapons themselves are fairly simple, which is reflected in their cost, it stands to reason that the expense of the ammunition itself is what's keeping them from wider use. Guardsmen might be issued a plasma gun, or a melta gun, but never a bolter, ever - as you pointed out, those weapons have much less costly ammunition but the guns themselves are far, far more costly. Keeping them supplied in a military setting is clearly far less of a problem than with bolt weapons.

To wit, it seems logical enough to deduce that the bolts themselves are what keeps bolt weapons as rare as they are.



#46 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:43 PM

By that logic, shouldn't the Heavy Bolter ammo be cheaper then? As everyone and their friend in the Imperium uses it as a Vehicle Armanent (even over the much cheaper stubber, both in ammo and the gun itself).



#47 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 29 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

 I actually agree with you on that one, and would encourage any GM to affect the cost and availability of 1-caliber bolts accordingly in military environments or situations where the acolytes are around forges and other manufactoria where heavy bolters and armored vehicles are made.



#48 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:35 PM

 If bolt shells are so expensive, why don't the Battle Sisters and Space Marines stop using them entirely and issue their troops with plasma guns instead? They're ancestral weapons anyway. Or, if cost is an issue, use up-gunned las weapons like hellguns. Autocannons are cheaper than heavy bolters, too; 1,000 compared to 1,600, and autocannons are much more powerful.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#49 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:29 PM

Bolts are not expensive for those organizations, which use the best and most reliable. Besides, Boltguns are cheap, Plasma is super expensive. And on Autocannons, if we went by raw damage like that, everything in 40k would use Multilasers/Autocannons…



#50 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:49 PM

 Plasma may be "super expensive" at first, but it would be cheaper in the long run, as opposed to manufacturing millions of bolt shells. Once the weapons are issued they'll be usable for the next few centuries, and plasma flasks are cheaper per-round than bolt shells are. On top of that, plasma is more powerful.

My point is, bolt shells should be cheaper than they are. Even if they were reduced to, say, 3 per round, that's still enough for 90 rounds of conventional SP ammunition. A common man would still prefer a stubber because it means they don't have to spend their month's paycheck on a single magazine, whereas a successful, professional soldier or assassin who makes a great deal more money would be able to afford one.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#51 dava100

dava100

    Member

  • Members
  • 191 posts

Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:45 PM

 Hi MalikCarr,

Love the work you have put in on both the Guides. 

I managed to find a printable version of the 'Galaxy of Guns' on the totalwarguild website, but nothing for the 'Tools of the trade'. Do you have a printable version of it (I do not mind if it isn't printer friendly)?

Many Thanks

Dava


Thought begets heresy. Heresy begets retribution.


#52 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 03 August 2012 - 12:05 AM

Were this a normal setting, but in 40k, plasma is rare for a reason, it is hard to make, produce, malfunctions and is very tempermental



#53 Jeff Tibbetts

Jeff Tibbetts

    Member

  • Members
  • 116 posts

Posted 03 August 2012 - 02:00 AM

 Not to mention the fact that bolters are of religious significance to Space Marines. Think of samurai swords to the old feudal warriors of Japan. They had become a symbol for the things that the samurai stood for. For a Space Marine, the bark of the bolter is a prayer to the gods of war. Nuff said. 

Bolts are stupidly expensive in DH, though… It seems kinda crazy to me. 



#54 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

 Another few things I'd like to see:

Specialty bolt shells (Hellfire/Metal Storm/Stalker silenced/Psybolt shells) and shotgun shells (slug, Cryptus shells), as well as Psyflame fuel and Soubiros sanctified las charge packs. Some of these are from Dark Heresy: Daemon Hunter, while others are in Black Crusade or Rogue Trader. If you need help, I'll provide you the pages in the books relevant.

Ripper pistol ammo is ridiculously overpriced. I bet even Hellfire bolts would not be as expensive. Maybe reduce it to 20/shot or 30/shot, or make it 100 Thrones for one magazine instead of one round?

As for the Hack Shotgun, Cymbel thinks that it can be fired one barrel at a time at reduced damage, although the "clip" listing is 1, the fluff describes it as being rigged to fire both barrels at once, and the Inquisitor's Handbook says that it can only fire at reduced damage if it's loaded with one shell.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#55 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:22 PM

 

dava100 said:

 

 

Hi MalikCarr,

Love the work you have put in on both the Guides.

I managed to find a printable version of the 'Galaxy of Guns' on the totalwarguild website, but nothing for the 'Tools of the trade'. Do you have a printable version of it (I do not mind if it isn't printer friendly)?

Many Thanks

Dava

 

 

Where did you find a printable version of the Macharian Handbook online?

If someone asks for a printable version I give them one, but only on a personal basis. If some dork uploaded one online after I sent it to them in a PM I'm going to have to have some angry words…



#56 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:30 PM

 OK apparently I have to reply individually to people since pasting in the quote tags on this forum doesn't work. The hell, FFG? Did you guys try and find the most broken and dysfunctional forum platform out there to better replicate the grimdarkness of technology in 40k? <_>

ANYWAY

Cymbel said:


Were this a normal setting, but in 40k, plasma is rare for a reason, it is hard to make, produce, malfunctions and is very tempermental

You hit the nail in the head on that one. Plasma weapons themselves are much harder to make than just about any other type of weapon due to the fact that only a few forge worlds really understand how they work, and they guard that data very closely. There's also the substantial risk of the gun blowing up in your hands, which IIRC is much, *MUCH* worse in TT than in 40KRP games. Once you actually *get* a plasma gun, woo and yay for you.

A bolter is a much more accessible weapon, but keeping enough ammo for the thing to actually kill stuff becomes the problem due to the high cost of manufacture of the shells. Insofar as I'm aware, bolts are the only type of ammunition that have to be individually blessed by the forges' Mechanicus staff and then stamped for approval by the Munitorum before they're sent out - that's about the type of treatment that guided missiles get, compared to a guy occasionally inspecting belts full of caseless autogun rounds on a giant assembly line and flicking out ones that look really bad.

Remember, a bolt is basically a miniature missile compared to a stub round, which is your typical piece of metal with a powder charge behind it wrapped in a metallic case that you can produce by the thousands with fairly simple machinery.



#57 MalikCarr

MalikCarr

    Member

  • Members
  • 50 posts

Posted 05 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Another few things I'd like to see:

Specialty bolt shells (Hellfire/Metal Storm/Stalker silenced/Psybolt shells) and shotgun shells (slug, Cryptus shells), as well as Psyflame fuel and Soubiros sanctified las charge packs. Some of these are from Dark Heresy: Daemon Hunter, while others are in Black Crusade or Rogue Trader. If you need help, I'll provide you the pages in the books relevant.

Ripper pistol ammo is ridiculously overpriced. I bet even Hellfire bolts would not be as expensive. Maybe reduce it to 20/shot or 30/shot, or make it 100 Thrones for one magazine instead of one round?

As for the Hack Shotgun, Cymbel thinks that it can be fired one barrel at a time at reduced damage, although the "clip" listing is 1, the fluff describes it as being rigged to fire both barrels at once, and the Inquisitor's Handbook says that it can only fire at reduced damage if it's loaded with one shell.

As far as I'm aware most of the specialty bolts made for Space Marines simply don't exist for those wielded by Sisters of Battle and commissars. I've done quite a bit of digging on the matter, so unless you can find something to the contrary I'm sticking with what's already been published.

There's exactly *one* guy who gets a Ripper Pistol and that's SLY MARBO, so I'd have to assume the thing has stupidly costly ammunition to get the sort of awful effects it has. Penetration of a plasma gun, Tearing of a bolter, *and* Toxic of a needler all in one. My body hurts just thinking about what one of those bullets looks like.

As for the hack shotgun, that's… also what my writing says as well. I'm not sure why you felt the need to bring that up.



#58 Boss Gitsmasha

Boss Gitsmasha

    Member

  • Members
  • 356 posts

Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:05 PM

If a Ripper Pistol is so expensive, I wonder what the cost is for an Exitus rifle. 


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#59 Cymbel

Cymbel

    Member

  • Members
  • 735 posts

Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:17 PM

WAY too much, which makes Ascension Vindicaire VERY silly, when shooting off the most expensive rounds ever at mooks.



#60 Kasatka

Kasatka

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,086 posts

Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:42 AM

Boss Gitsmasha said:

If a Ripper Pistol is so expensive, I wonder what the cost is for an Exitus rifle. 

It has no cost as it is never for sale. Entire Officio kill teams would be sent after you if you obtained one and flaunted it, heck even if you used it and there was evidence you had.


  • pearldrum1 likes this

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.





© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS