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Under the Porch + Eat the Dead = ???


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#1 Deadsong

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 09:59 PM

And here is my next case to somebody to clarifiy...

How do you handle Under the Porch and Eat the Dead?

Under the Porch
3
[Shub-Niggurath Support]
Location.

Action: Sacrifice Under the Porch to search your deck for a Shub-Niggurath character, and put it into play under your control. At the end of the phase, return that character to its owner’s hand.

Eat the Dead
1
[Shub-Niggurath Support]
Attachment.

Attach to a character you control.
Response: When attached character is destroyed, attach it and Eat the Dead to any domain you control as resources.

 

Since I could use Under the Porch to pick any Shub-character from my deck, attach Eat the Dead to it and then give him a one wound to destroy it and attach it to my domain as a resource. But would Under the Porch in this case occur after the end of this phase (in this case my operations phase)?

I think I found one case where Magnus was doing some research for Serpent of Yoth, where he clarified the faq rule

(v1.0) Card States
If a card has an ability that triggers in
response to said card entering the discard
pile, that effect does not resolve or
trigger if that card had blank text due to
a card effect, was attached to a domain
as a resource, was discarded from hand,
or was insane before it entered the
discard pile.

So would this also happen in this case? That since my character would not be in play anymore, it would not go to my hand? Or does the Under the Porches text go over this rule, since it does not clarify if the character is in the play anymore?

Im not so sure which one is the correct way, for me it little bit stands for it, that you would have to return the character to my hand, but then again... If I would have to go by the text of the card, I would have to do it so.



#2 TheProfessor

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 01:45 AM

Similar cards that were printed later than Under the Porch say things like:

At the end of the phase, if it is still in play from this effect, return this character to your hand. 

That kind of wording is very clear and you would not have a question. The FAQ entry clarifies that the character who becomes part of the domain has no text box, but it is the effect of Under the Porch that is of concern.  The effect lingers after Under the Porch hits the discard pile.

One argument would be:  "Under the Porch has different language than other cards.  This is intentional, and it doesn't matter if the character is in play - it returns to your hand."  Another argument would be "The Designer's intention was..."  or yet another (and absolute) "Damon ruled that..."

I guess because the effect lingers, and it targets a card, and a card can be targeted in play, in discard, as a resource; it would still be targeted and would have to return to hand.

But I'm really not sure on this one - it makes sense to me from the argument of differentiation, and I don't see anything in the FAQ that jumps up at me.

 

 



#3 Loprw

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 01:48 AM

 

My opinion is that Under the Porch dont take effect, because the character is out of game (as a domain) and for that reason cannot go to your hand.

Is the same case if your oponent make a wound to the character putted in play by UtP and, for that reason, destroyed. The character is out of game and cannot return to your hand.



#4 Deadsong

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 06:23 AM

Now this is interesting question, that is this card little bit as same thing what was told here with Serpent of Yoth (Forced Response: After Serpent from Yoth enters your discard pile, each opponent must choose and sacrifice a character.) that if it goes from your hand to discard, the Froced Response is triggered. Which is quite funny, 'cause it does not say in the card that it has to be in play.

But yeah, I was also thinking about that situation too, where character would go to discard with the wound. But now it would be nice to have some kind of clarification about how it would be classified in this case. Is it out of play, when it goes to domain resources or discard, or does it move from there to your hand anyway??

I myself cant be sure about now but I think Loprw could be really right about this. In the faq there is actually a point about Out of Play, where it says that:

"If a card would go to an out of play
zone, it goes to its owner’s out of play
zone. A card that moves from an in play
zone to an out of play zone is treated as
though it were a new card. Any effects
connected to the card will no longer
affect it.
The only exception to this rule is any
abilities that trigger when a card moves
from an in play zone to an out of play
zone."

So in this case the card would not come to my hand. Cant be yet sure is it good thing or bad thing for my deck, but anyway it could be solution for everything =)



#5 Magnus Arcanis

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Posted 10 September 2011 - 07:26 AM

Deadsong said:

Now this is interesting question, that is this card little bit as same thing what was told here with Serpent of Yoth (Forced Response: After Serpent from Yoth enters your discard pile, each opponent must choose and sacrifice a character.) that if it goes from your hand to discard, the Froced Response is triggered. Which is quite funny, 'cause it does not say in the card that it has to be in play.

But yeah, I was also thinking about that situation too, where character would go to discard with the wound. But now it would be nice to have some kind of clarification about how it would be classified in this case. Is it out of play, when it goes to domain resources or discard, or does it move from there to your hand anyway??

I myself cant be sure about now but I think Loprw could be really right about this. In the faq there is actually a point about Out of Play, where it says that:

"If a card would go to an out of play
zone, it goes to its owner’s out of play
zone. A card that moves from an in play
zone to an out of play zone is treated as
though it were a new card. Any effects
connected to the card will no longer
affect it.
The only exception to this rule is any
abilities that trigger when a card moves
from an in play zone to an out of play
zone."

So in this case the card would not come to my hand. Cant be yet sure is it good thing or bad thing for my deck, but anyway it could be solution for everything =)

Aww I was gonna quote that to you! lol.

Bascially how it all goes down is that Under the Porch places a lingering effect on the part that it put into play. aka "at the end of the phase return it to your hand."

Once it is leaves play (almost) all effects on that cards are removed (almost meaning the exception situations mentioned in the quote). So even though the card, in our mind, is still around; since it left play the card no longer has that lingering effect so the game doesn't check for it at the end of the phase.

While more easily understandable wording has come along since Under the Porch has been released (yay for inconsistant wording, but I'll excuse this one since it Under the Porch's wording isn't very good and easily causes confusion which is why we're having this conversation), it functions exactly the same as a card that would say "At the end of the phase, if it is still in play from this effect, return this character to your hand. " As TheProfessor pointed out earlier.

So in short, unless the card is in play at the end of the phase it doesn't return to your hand.



#6 Deadsong

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 03:45 AM

Forgot to thanx Magnus for his reply ;)

I noticed it from the faq yeah, and got it. Cards that are out of play are then out of play and there are nothing effect that could fix that =) Atleast yet, but have to see what future comes with...



#7 jasonconlon

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 05:18 AM

Anyone know if Magnus's answer still holds true today? The FAQ text has since been modified, stating: "A card that moves from an in play zone to an out of play zone to an in play zone is treated as though it were a new card." ...which has a very different meaning.

#8 jhaelen

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 01:39 AM

The only way to be sure is to send a rules question using the link below. But I don't see why the change in the FAQ's wording should result in a different answer.



#9 jasonconlon

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 08:37 PM

The old FAQ said that when a card left play it was considered a new card and escaped any effects.
The current FAQ instead says that when a card returns to play it is considered a new card and escapes any effects - which suggests to me that simply leaving play is no longer sufficient to escape any effects.

Question submitted. I'll let you know what comes back.

#10 jasonconlon

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

Turns out it was a misprint in recent FAQs. Magnus's answer still stands - cards that leave play escape those effects.
 

The FAQ Official Rules Clarification used to read as follows:
"2.23 Zones of Play - Out of Play - ... If a card would go to an out of play zone, it goes to its owner’s out of play zone. A card that moves from an in play zone to an out of play zone is treated as though it were a new card. Any effects connected to the card will no longer affect it. The only exception to this rule is any abilities that trigger when a card moves from an in play zone to an out of play zone."
Now it reads as:
"2.23 Zones of Play - Out of Play - ... If a card would go to an out of play zone, it goes to its owner’s out of play zone. A card that moves from an in play zone to an out of play zone to an in play zone is treated as though it were a new card. Any effects connected to the card will no longer affect it. The only exception to this rule is any abilities that trigger when a card moves from an in play zone to an out of play zone."

Does this now mean that only cards that return to play can escape effects connected with the card?

There appears to be a duplication of words in that entry. Thank you for catching that, we'll remove that extra "in play zone." This rule is to show that if you have a card that says, "Response: After this character is destroyed..." or something effectively similar, its effect still triggers. The game state remembers that the card left and its trigger is still applicable, while a character that has an effect target and resolve on it that lets say lasts until the end of the phase, immediately ends when that card enters the discard pile. If that card returns to play it has no memory of that effect.


For example, if I use Under The Porch to search for and play a character during the Story phase, and then that character is wounded in a [Combat] struggle and destroyed, will it return from the discard pile to my hand at the end of the phase?

No.


Further, is that still the case if the affected card also changes from one out of play area to another?

It loses all memory of any effect active on it the moment it leaves play.


Edited by jasonconlon, 18 September 2013 - 07:44 PM.

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