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The Dark Pharaoh Herald


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#21 Tibs

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 03:51 AM

Rex can't gain infinite clues. Either you figure he runs out when you run out of clues in your set, or each investigator makes a trade once.

And for those of you who think that verbatim reading is the only logical way to go on some cards? Most of these problem cards are those that are in the base game or older expansions. They therefore could not have been written to account for certain effects in future expansions.

Need I remind everyone of Marie Lambeau + Martial Arts? Would she really get another +2 for her Third Eye effect because she has a third hand for casting spells? What about Axe + Martial Arts? If you're using the axe one-handed without anything in your other hand, do you get the extra +3 on the axe while still getting the +2 for the open hand? Or is she actually using two hands to grip the axe even though it doesn't say that literally on the Axe card and doesn't get the M.A. +2?

Notice that the problem cards when read verbatim are the older ones. Marie Lambeau came out before Martial Arts. Axe came out way before Martial Arts. When axe was printed, it didn't matter that they worded it the way they did as opposed to: "This weapon can be used 2-handed for +3 instead of +2."

My point: Rex came out after the Dark Pharaoh, when there was never an issue when a character didn't roll. Besides, it says "before" rolling for curses, not "before and if" so of course it still applies to fresh Curses or to Rex.

Gate bursts came out after Kate. Kate should stop gate bursts, because gate bursts--like regularly opening gates and appearing monsters--are affecting Arkham across dimensions, and her Flux Stabilizer should stop that. I also believe she should still get monster encounters in Other Worlds because why would her Stabilizer stop monsters if they're already there with her?



#22 dkw

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 06:22 AM

Marie's third eye would NOT grant the open hand bonus because it is specificly for Casting Spells.  Verbatum answer.

Never said it was the only way, but it is the easiest, and in my experience, causes the fewest rule problems.  Again I ask, do you play the game by the rules in the rule book, or do you make up the rules as you go?

For everyone claiming timing issues, you can deal with each thing in the Upkeep phase when you want.   You can choose to deal with the Curse as the last part of the Upkeep Phase, or the first, applying your interpretation of Blood Will Boil before rolling for your Curse.  Timing is not the issue, but whether it always hurts or only when you roll.
If it is only when you Roll, then Investigators have a 1 Turn chance to get the Curse Removed at the Church before they suffer damage as you don't Roll to remove a Curse the first Upkeep that you have it.
By getting hurt every Upkeep, there is a good chance that more then Rex will end up being stuck in the Hospital for the game.  Might as well just retire the Investigator right then and there if that is the case.  Heck, might as well retire everytime you get cursed then.  That way, you get a fresh character that can act right now to fight monsters, get clues, gate hop, or whatever, and retain all those trophies.  Otherwise, you are just going to sit in the Hospital for the game, and might as well go do something else as you wait for the awakening of the Ancient One.

If it is, "always take damage," wouldn't the text have been written as, "At the Beginning of the Upkeep Phase, all Cursed Investigators lose 1 Stamina."  That beats any timing questions, because it says Beginning and nothing beats Beginning in regards to timing.  Or written as, "Before Investigators resolve the Upkeep Phase, all Cursed Investigators lose 1 Stamina."
Both of those would always be in effect no matter what.



#23 MrsGamura

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 07:04 AM

 ha ha I've been miss playing the Church this whole time...you can Bless other investigators! lol

yup that third eye only good for spells and Martial Arts is a skill last time I checked but then I do think Chen would gain a extra +1 combat check while using the Axe. Thematically she's a Martial Artist so is most likely trained in Armed Combat!

i.e. she just knows how to hold the Axe a little better and get that extra Power! than say "Me" who would drop it on my own face...so I would get -3 combat checks while using the Axe.



#24 Tibs

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:47 AM

"As the rules are written in the book" works for some games, but not Arkham Horror.

The rules printed in the Arkham Horror rulebook(s) are sometimes ambiguous, incomplete, or even wrong. Having multiple expansions just compounds these issues.

Some things that you could follow verbatim are wrong. There are some things you can't follow verbatim because they're not covered.

Mythos effects removing Spawns? Rifts in Vortexes? Not covered in the rules--they had to be FAQed and answered individually.
Heralds are discarded when the AO awakens. Not covered in some of the rule books.
Some printings of AH say that going to Terror Level 10 immediately adds a doom token. This has been updated and so is wrong.

The Kingsport rule book says that rifts add a doom token if they follow the path that matches their color. This is wrong: they add a doom token if their movement symbol comes up under the matching color. There are some paths that are both colors and if they follow them, they may not necessarily add a doom token. When rifts are in vortexes they don't move at all. That doesn't mean they stop adding doom tokens and creating monsters--but the rulebook verbatim concludes that they do stop doing those things.

Pretty much the point I'm driving at is that sometimes you have to make up the rules as you go along. For example:

Saying "Marie's third hand doesn't work with M.A. is a verbatim answer" is pretty much incorrect. The "verbatim" itself says the third hand can only be used for spells. It does not say that the hand is not there if it's not equipped with a spell. Therefore, following verbatim, the third hand should grant a M.A. bonus because M.A. doesn't use hands--it just counts the unused ones. I've had to make up the rule as I've gone along that her "third eye" will not grant a M.A. bonus because that's stupid--but it's not the rules verbatim.



#25 dkw

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 03:28 PM

Apparently, we both have different definitions of verbatum.

Is M.A. a Spell or not?  Rhetorical question.  Since it is not a Spell, it can't benefit from the extra Spell Only Hand granted from Third Eye.  Think like this, are you going to be able to hit someone harder because you can concentrate on more then 1 thing, no you won't.  But that debate is for other threads.

The question is whethere Blood Will Boil is always active or only active when you are required to roll for your Curse.
Your Definition of Verbatum says always active.  Mine says only for when roll is required.

Bad writting is a problem of the designers.  The rules are sound, while their choice of words is what causes problems.  But, follow what is written, apply a little logic and common sense, and you shouldn't have any problems.  Or, maybe you have to be autistic to understand the rules without a problem.  Knowing Arkham, being dyslexic would probably provide complete clarity.



#26 Tibs

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Posted 25 January 2009 - 05:55 PM

dkw said:

 

Apparently, we both have different definitions of verbatum.

Is M.A. a Spell or not?  Rhetorical question.  Since it is not a Spell, it can't benefit from the extra Spell Only Hand granted from Third Eye.  Think like this, are you going to be able to hit someone harder because you can concentrate on more then 1 thing, no you won't.  But that debate is for other threads.

 

 

I'm pretty sure we both agree that "verbatim" is the raw semantics of the text. Where we differ though is our logical conclusions on some issues.

To bring this back to the relevant topic, the Dark Pharaoh herald actually says this:
At the start of the Upkeep Phase, before rolling to get rid of Curses, each Cursed investigator loses 1 Stamina.

It does not say this:
1) At the start of the Upkeep Phase, before any upkeep actions are performed, each Cursed investigator loses 1 Stamina. This occurs before rolls to remove the Curse, if any.

Nor does it say this:
2) At the start of the Upkeep Phase, any investigator who is able to roll to get rid of a Curse loses 1 Stamina before rolling.

The clause labeled (1) is my interpretation. The clause labeled (2) is your interpretation. Both could be concluded by the text as written. Yet neither of these are what the herald says verbatim, and they're both different from each other. So saying one is the "correct" interpretation, or that one is identical to the "rules as written" is patently untrue.

There are two obtainable cards from the Curse of the Dark Pharaoh expansion: Tainted and Anointed. Both cause a Cursed investigator to roll twice. Reading these cards and the Dark Pharaoh herald verbatim concludes that the investigator will lose multiple stamina in one upkeep, because the investigator is rolling multiple times. Clearly the effects of the Tainted and Anointed cards are only to have the investigator keep the curse longer or discard it earlier, respectively. Such is the pitfalls of literal reading, and care has to be taken--especially when dealing with mixed expansions.

dkw said:

 

 

Bad writting is a problem of the designers. The rules are sound, while their choice of words is what causes problems. But, follow what is written, apply a little logic and common sense, and you shouldn't have any problems.

 

 

 

I like one of these notions--"follow what is written, but apply logic and common sense." Unfortunately, sometimes the necessary "common sense" overrides some of what is written, rather than just to expand upon it.

However I don't agree with your notion about the rules being sound when the words are sometimes poor. How can any rule be sound when the words that communicate it are poorly chosen? The rule does not exist without the words. Therefore, a rule can never be axiomatic when its wording is ambiguous.

A lot of people use common sense when applying written rules. And we ideally shouldn't have problems, but we clearly do--just look at all these forum topics!






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