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un-official walkers


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#21 jakimaru

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:15 PM

I find this whole debate really strange, people want to use a model that doesn't have official rules and isn't produced by the company that releases the rules and the product range.

 

This is equivilent to wanting to use warmachine models in warhammer 40k or pokemon cards in magic.

 

I personally wouldn't want my opponent fielding something against me that isn't official at a tournament because it won't have been playtested by FFG who are in charge of game balancing and controlling the overall impact of a unit on the game. FFG CEO never said you can't play them for fun between friends but not officially, so they are on the same grounds as home-brewed stuff - ask your opponent first.

 

Finally lets look at two of the more materialistic points -

1st - why would you allow another company (even one you work with) to create and release products for a line you own/pay licence for and potentially release units with better rules so people will buy them and not your stuff? This point is not about the models it's the rules. Releasing control of your IP is a really bad idea.

2nd - FFG make this game. FFG products only. Simple rule. They do so much work to get interesting and balanced units out every month whilst trying to avoid new units warping the game or power creep (i'll admit power creep is going on though) why would you let someone else come in and potentially change that?

Nobody has said you can't field unofficial mechs in unofficial games but there have to be limits. FFG are a massive company it has to be one rule for all otherwise where do you draw the line, what if they said the dust games mechs are ok and another company comes along making tanks for dust? are they allowed?

 

Just my opinion but I do think some people are moaning about this without looking at the bigger picture of what's good for the game.

 

finally I leave you with the thought - maybe some of the stuff that is in the process of dust games having made and ffg playtesting might show up in dust warfare? and be legal from book release. it's what used to happen with 40k codex's when Andy Chambers ran GW - rules for things that didn't have official models yet.

 

 

 



#22 rwwingate

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 12:13 PM

jakimaru said:

This is equivilent to wanting to use warmachine models in warhammer 40k or pokemon cards in magic.

Not really equivilent.  There are no warjacks in the 40K universe.  There are real tanks in the dust comics and all of the "unofficial" walkers from  Dust Studos website are straight from the dust universe.

 

jakimaru said:

 
 

2nd - FFG make this game. FFG products only. Simple rule. They do so much work to get interesting and balanced units out every month whilst trying to avoid new units warping the game or power creep (i'll admit power creep is going on though) why would you let someone else come in and potentially change that?

 

 

No.  Dust Studios produces the game and produces all of the miniatures.  FFG markets and distrubutes the game.  It's not quite that bright a line and FFG seems to have some hand in development, but no, FFG does not run the show by themselves.  It's a partnership.  So ALL of the models are Dust Studio models, the tournament legal and unofficial alike.



#23 Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:49 PM

 

finally I leave you with the thought - maybe some of the stuff that is in the process of dust games having made and ffg playtesting might show up in dust warfare? and be legal from book release. it's what used to happen with 40k codex's when Andy Chambers ran GW - rules for things that didn't have official models yet.

THIS WOULD BE A SOLUTION AND THE ONLY VALID POINT YOU HAVE MADE SO FAR.

 

 

 

 

 



#24 Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:50 PM

rwwingate said:

jakimaru said:

 

This is equivilent to wanting to use warmachine models in warhammer 40k or pokemon cards in magic.

 

 

Not really equivilent.  There are no warjacks in the 40K universe.  There are real tanks in the dust comics and all of the "unofficial" walkers from  Dust Studos website are straight from the dust universe.

 

jakimaru said:

 
 

 

2nd - FFG make this game. FFG products only. Simple rule. They do so much work to get interesting and balanced units out every month whilst trying to avoid new units warping the game or power creep (i'll admit power creep is going on though) why would you let someone else come in and potentially change that?

 

 

 

 

No.  Dust Studios produces the game and produces all of the miniatures.  FFG markets and distrubutes the game.  It's not quite that bright a line and FFG seems to have some hand in development, but no, FFG does not run the show by themselves.  It's a partnership.  So ALL of the models are Dust Studio models, the tournament legal and unofficial alike.

I seriously doubt FFG playtests or even edits this product line.



#25 Gobbo

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 06:07 PM

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

I seriously doubt FFG playtests or even edits this product line.

 

As a playtester for the Dust line, I would argue that point.



#26 Algesan

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 01:56 AM

Gobbo said:

Grand Inquisitor Fulminarex said:

 

I seriously doubt FFG playtests or even edits this product line.

 

 

 

As a playtester for the Dust line, I would argue that point.

Both DT & DW? 



#27 Gobbo

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 03:56 PM

 Only one at a time.  I am currently on the DW team.



#28 Hans Chung-Otterson

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 08:40 PM

I don't get why people are so hyped up on support for unofficial stuff. I can understand that you want more & different minis, but why should FFG support something they're not, um, supporting?

Sorry for the snark, if you view it so, but I come to DW from DT, & I just want whatever FFG is producing for the game. I'm not some big WW2-head--I like DT & DW, and I'm not going to be converting tanks or whatever for the game. What's in the game is in the game, no?

I guess I just don't get mini wargaming culture.



#29 Gimp

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Posted 21 October 2011 - 12:33 PM

There can be lots of different reasons.

Some people want to add something of their own to the game to make it more 'theirs.'

Some people like the concept, but want it expanded to include other ideas that FFG hasn't had the time to add, even if they want to.

Some people know that FFG would have a harder time expanding into the established WW2 model market, but would like the units that would logically still be around and having to face the DUST units.  FFG may add historical vehicles, but I would expect them to come as unit cards rather than as models.

Some people like the core game engine, but want to explore more what ifs from before or after the game setting.  Walkers made their first appearance at Stalingrad, but there were years of war before that, and years between Stalingrad and the current setting.

There can be lots of reasons people are interested in adding unofficial stuff.  I threw out just a few I could see quickly.

Most popular games come with variety, because variety adds more to keep interest.  Whether that is through scenarios, random set up, special rules, new units, or whatever, gamers enjoy variety.  Some people will be quite happy with the variety included with DUST, but others will want more.  Few people like to wait for something they want.



#30 feildmarshallolberhus

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 05:20 PM

 I agree 100% and buying cards with stats would be fine and if FF did not want to produce the models it would be nice for them to link up with other sites were those who wanted could find other models and include them in their armies. Like dust studio does with links to other well established model companies, but would those models even if the right scale be official ?

And it is nonsense  to think that a card for every military device and weapon will be made. As some have already done making cards on a DIY basis is the way to go in my opinion.

And when FF does come out with aircraft and tanks don`t be surprised if they look nothing like what any of us think they should look like it is their game to make and ours to buy.

Only time will tell and most of this is speculation and the wait and see attitude just makes me anxious. I can`t wait for the core rules for warfare and for Christmas when i pray the book comes out ( fingers crossed )



#31 Algesan

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 02:40 AM

feildmarshallolberhus said:

 I agree 100% and buying cards with stats would be fine and if FF did not want to produce the models it would be nice for them to link up with other sites were those who wanted could find other models and include them in their armies. Like dust studio does with links to other well established model companies, but would those models even if the right scale be official ?

And it is nonsense  to think that a card for every military device and weapon will be made. As some have already done making cards on a DIY basis is the way to go in my opinion.

And when FF does come out with aircraft and tanks don`t be surprised if they look nothing like what any of us think they should look like it is their game to make and ours to buy.

Only time will tell and most of this is speculation and the wait and see attitude just makes me anxious. I can`t wait for the core rules for warfare and for Christmas when i pray the book comes out ( fingers crossed )

The problem with the home-made stuff is that it doesn't transport well.  As long as it is thee and me playing against each other, then whatever we are happy with in house rules is cool.  It is when we try to go elsewhere, especially for a tournament, that problems start showing up.



#32 Gimp

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 06:28 AM

Officially sanctioned, but non-tournament legal, cards for additional units would not be a terrible thing.

Most games will not be official tournament games, so individual play groups could decide what to allow or not allow.

Having the actual development team give point values that fit their design concept would be a nice aid for those who aren't quite as adept at figuring valid point values.  I'd prefer it as a side job, instead of a main effort, because I'd like to see more walkers, flying units, Soviets, etc.., but I'd pick up the cards for historical/unimportant DUST units just for the variety. 

They could also run up cards for DUST models that may not be planned to be added to the game, like the recovery Walker or landing craft, so players could buy the DUST models that look nice with rules for friendly games using them.  Both of those units work more as scenario specific additions, but they do belong to the DUST universe, so it would be nice to have something reasonable to use them with.  The landing craft rules could even be added to the Operation Cyclone scenario using them without changing the scenario, as the Axis isn't likely to want to come within range of the .50 cal mounts anyway.

They could run up the cards as pdf's, and only invest time into them.  Players could purchase and print the cards, FFG would be able to sell a product without printing costs, and they could never have an impact on official tournaments.  Cards could have an additional logo noting they are not tournament legal units.  Something like, 'Friendly Fire Unit: Not for Tournament Play.'  Not being available as standard DUST cards, they would also be more readily identifiable as non-tournament legal.



#33 GunPilot

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:28 PM

First, I'm new to the Dust forum so forgive me if I restate something that has already been said. Second, I fully agree with the points Gimp has made on how to deal with the support of "unofficial" DT/DW vehicles/units. As someone else pointed out if its an 'local' game then feel free to use the "unofficial" game piece(s) but if its an official FFG event, don't us it.

Let's be honest with ourselves about a few things: 1) Its simply a game that we're supposed to have fun with. 2) Once you buy it, its your game and as long as everyone agrees who is playing, you can do what you want with it.....again, just have fun. 3) Remember, this is "alternate history" and the vehicles, weapons and units are the product of a great imagination so if you are playing in a local game you are in control of that alternate history. 4) FFG has produced DT/DW in cooperation with a host of talented people and we're all here because we obviously like it. That said, in the end its their product line/story line so we have to live with their decisions. As an analogy, you can play poker by any rules you want at home or with your friends, but when playing a poker game in a casino in Las Vegas, you play by THEIR rules, like it or not.

All that said, I'll go back to my earlier comments and reiterate that Gimp has some nice ideas. No matter what, I hope you all have fun playing the game.  






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