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#21 Kennon

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:20 AM

Stag Lord said:

Lot of good stuff here.

Kennon: why do you get the impression that varys is NOt acting for teh good of the realm? i think its is pretty evdient that he is - and the good of the realm is is sole motivation. the Lanisters can't be allowed to claim the Throne. Tommen is a child of incest and adultery as is Myrcella - and these facts are in the open now. No matter what happens at cersei's trial - these alleagations cna never be put abck in teh box and as long as the Lannisetres hold teh throne - there will be no peace in teh realm. They have to go - all of them for atability to return.

Why Varys isn't supporting Stannis is an interesting question - but maybe he just wnats the stability of the targaryen dynasty back. Garnted aerys was a nut job, but they ahd plenty of good rulers before him and maybe Varys thinks with proper guidance Dany and Aegon will eb fit consorts and peaceful rulers. But first things first: the Lannisters and their tainted children HAVE to go.

 

Right...... Dany and Aegon having a relationship wouldn't be messed up, but Tommen and Myrcella are grotesques? There's a really bizarre double standard in villifiying two children whose personalities we've seen nothing but relatively nice things about, but at the same time edifying the Targaryen dynasty and their marriage practices. Lol, They had plenty of good rulers, but they had plenty of bad ones other than The Mad King as well. Even Targs that didn't make it to the throne were often off their rocker. Aerion Brightflame didn't make it to the throne, right? I'd have to go double check. Regardless, the Dunk and Egg stories show that he was pretty out there.

As for there not being peace in the realm, it sure looks like it was getting closer and closer based on Kevan's work at stabilizing things. I sure took Varys statements to mean that he was killing Kevan because he was being too successful at stabilizing it all. I suppose that's another possibility. Maybe Varys isn't a die hard Targaryen supporter for reasons that we can't fathom, maybe he's a die hard Lannister hater for reasons we can't fathom.



#22 madkasel

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 12:57 PM

Stag Lord said:

LT: So well said. i too ahve been a big Daenerys fan since Book 1 - and have always found her the msot engagaing and fascinating character in the novels. Teh Meereenese Knot not only led to poor  and plodding plotting - it led to some bad writing; in terms of charcter development and what had been established. Many of dany's actions were clearly foolish and her refusal to heed the advcie of people she knew she could trsut liek slemy and the bloodriders was hard to beleive. You can see Martin's struggles with the plot very clearly and very painfully in the Meereen sections - and this sentiment seems to eb unviersal.

 

Well, then you can imagine how the  book just sang right along for those of us who have always had little use for Dany and the dull oversea sideplots that so weakly bore on the Westeros story.

Ugh.



#23 Rubinon

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 08:37 PM

Is chaotic Varys with his unclear agenda the perfumed senechall that Dany should beware? It would be a bit obvious if it really was the perfumed guy in Meereen (oh, here is another thing I liked about Meereen: The sentiment of the big Dornish guy that he can't keep the names apart. Well spoken, brother.). And since Varys seems to be playing both sides, it is likely that she will trust him when (if) she comes to Westeros, and that he will reveal his true motives later.



#24 LoneWanderer

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 10:41 PM

Rubinon said:

Is chaotic Varys with his unclear agenda the perfumed senechall that Dany should beware?

Good call.

Hadn't actually thought of that. But now you say it I think it fits perfectly.

For what it's worth; my money is on Varys ending up having none of the possible motives that are obvious to us at this point in time. Far more likely that his game involves dark powers, sorcery and cheating death; beggaring the realm is all just a prelude to the long-night that he hopes to usher in and the deal with the devil that he hopes to make.

Somewhere along the line he'll probably be revealed to be ringleadering/paymastering the Faceless Men and being the man behind the 'go steal the book about killing dragons' sub-plot. Which, I guess, is why Dany should probably avoid trusting him.

People have half-jestingly called him a 'sorceror' one too many times for my liking, and the ideas that the series' most slippery and underhand character might be doing it for (1) love of the Targaryens, or (2) because he cares about Westeros' children, are both unworkable.

 

Also, speaking of prophecies to Dany, does anybody have any idea whatsoever who Quaithe is and/or why she cares about Dany's progress?



#25 madkasel

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:20 AM

Rubinon said:

Is chaotic Varys with his unclear agenda the perfumed senechall that Dany should beware?

 

Good thought! Stag Lord also pointed out to me that the ship Tyrion and gang were on could be translated to perfumed senechall.



#26 Stag Lord

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:23 AM

I strongly disagree in your assessment of Varys, LoneWanderer. If he in fact turned out to be some sort of supernatural agent of evil, I’d snort in derision. Martin has already given us the reversal with this character - he initially appeared as a sinister spymaster, allied to the Lannisters and complicit in Eddard's arrest. It was only over time that he has been revealed as one of the nobler characters in the series – motivated almost wholly by his sincere concern for the good of the realm.

Which leads me to the bone of my contention with Kennon: The Targaryen dynasty can’t be held to the same standards as that of the other noble House s of Westeros. Sure – its a moral double standard to sign off on Targ incest while condemning that of Jaime and Cersei (or others). But there is no moral equivalency here. The Targaryens are/were a foreign dynasty with different customs and different attitudes which they forced upon the Westerosi with dragons and steel. It remains clearly unacceptable for Westerosi to practice incestuous behavior – simply look at the lengths Jaime and Cersei go to conceal their activity. Cersei even ruse the double standard at one point, wishing Targaryen practices were acceptable for all. But they aren’t. The taint on Myrcella and Tommen is what gives Stannis’s rebellion legitimacy. It also got Jon Arryn killed – and on and on.

As long as the Lannisters are close to the Throne, the realm cannot have peace – and peace is vary’s ultimate and only goal. He clearly believes a Targaryen Restoration is the most effective solution to this whole mess – that a clear restoration of that dynasty will bring peace to the Realm and security for the small folk. And I think martin ahs done a very good job of developing the character and slowly but conclusively revealing his motivation towards this goal.
 


#27 Stag Lord

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:25 AM

madkasel said:

Rubinon said:

 

Is chaotic Varys with his unclear agenda the perfumed senechall that Dany should beware?

 

 

 

Good thought! Stag Lord also pointed out to me that the ship Tyrion and gang were on could be translated to perfumed senechall.

 

True - but i now think that was a red herring since taht ship ended up pretty much driftwood after the big storm - and i kind fo assume the salvers sank it. So Dany didn't really ahve anything to fear form that particualr ship. I think the perfumed seneschal was Hizdahr - her erstwhile husband and would be poisoner.



#28 Saturnine

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 03:49 AM

I cannot believe that Varys is so naive to think all he's been doing has been for the good of the realm, certainly not in a short-term perspective, and even long-term this claim is rather dubious. I cannot agree that the war that he had a part in plunging Westeros into is a small price to pay for restoring a Targaryen dynasty. It's cute that he seems to think Aegon will be an awesome king, but even if they do manage to make him king, it seems unlikely the realm will be at peace in it's war-torn state, with no harvests and Winter™ on the march. So for all his professions of his love for the realm, his actions have apparently been to help prepare the way for the Targaryens with little regard for the needs of the realm and its people. And I can't even guess why he is such a staunch supporter of the Targaryens, so I remain suspicious of his motives.

All that being said, I want to see the tv version of the epilogue scene with Varys and Kevan sooo bad. While reading, I couldn't help but seeing Conleth Hill in my mind, looking apologetically at Kevan with crossbow in hand. It'd be brilliant.



#29 Stag Lord

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 05:37 AM

Well - to be clear: Varys played very little role in "plunging the realm into war". His conditional support of the Lannisters was because he thought they offered a better prospect for stability. They have proven to be a disaster and their actions are responsible for war - going all the way back to Ned's execution. So i think his Lannister hate (at this point) is pretty justified and consistent with hsi goals of peace and satbility.

But I do have to concede that in smuggling out Dany and Viserys (and maybe Aegon) he was laying teh seeds for a War of restoration - which of course woudl have been bad all in all for the small folk of the realm. So i am having a little trouble reconciling my reading of his character and how he ahs evolved. I ahve to reconcile his "concern for the Realm" with his apparent Targaryen loyalties - and I don't have enough information yet.



#30 LoneWanderer

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 06:24 AM

Stag Lord said:

peace is vary’s ultimate and only goal

 

If you believe that, then I believe that you have been thoroughly deceived by the books' greatest deceiver.

 

Why would Varys, a eunuch who (apparently) grew up in the Free Cities, stealing and blackmailing his way to wealth/power, give a rotten fig about peace in Westeros?

Sure, one of the Targaryens (most recent Aerys?) brought him over to serve as a spymaster (for a wage), but why would that make a coldhearted black-marketeer like Varys particularly care for the Targaryens, never mind their curious foreign realm and its weird alien customs? In particular, while he may employ urchins to steal and kill for him, I don't see him starting a nursery anywhere. Is this a man who honestly cares for the wellbeing of the realm's youngest?

Sure, Varys may well currently be in a phase of flattering himself as doing this 'for the realm' (at least, when in front of the camera), but there's no way that he can be sincere. Given what we think we know about his background and his ruthlessness, it'd just be a bizarre set of motivations.

Indeed, does Varys even sincerely believe that New Aegon is the real deal? We think that he might me a "Mummer's Dragon", Vary's might well know that he is. And if he does, how does putting a fake king on the throne grant any more stability than putting an illegitimate one on it?

 

Put another way, who thinks that New Aegon will get the Iron Throne without a serious fight? Will the Lannisters really just hand it over without a military struggle? And, if you think that they're a spent force, will the Tyrells? Another marriage for Maergery? I think not. As the last powerhouse left standing, they ought to be the first in line to slap down the new Targaryen pretender. Further, even if you go down the Martell/Tyrell support New Aegon route; can he honestly win both of them at the same time? No way, the enmity between them is just too entrenched. With New Aegon, more war is the only certainty.



#31 Stag Lord

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 07:16 AM

I agree with your arguments in your last two paragraphs. As i siad in my post - i am not sure how to reconcile his designs on Restoration with his goal of stability in the realm. And i am on the record as suspecting Aegon is not what he seems. but - I don't think we have enough information eyt to make a final determination on the Spider.

Your case is well reasoned - but I am comfortabel with my reading of Varys as having a deep desire for epace and prosperity. These two goals can only be accomplished with stability and legitimacy of rule - especially in a dynastic monarchical society -a dn teh Lannisters ain't it. Varys was tarumatically scarred at an early age by forced castration. Psycholgically - he is an outsider and in garve physical danger in a very violent world. For his own survival, and indeed, i would argue for his own inetrnal spritual and mental health - he craves peace adn consistency - form the state elvel on down. He is smart enough to play teh agem as well as Littlefinger - but he feels he is acting for teh good of the realm and finds psychological sceurity in that pursuit. I read him as one of the tru heroes of the saga.



#32 Kennon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 11:47 AM

Stag Lord said:


Which leads me to the bone of my contention with Kennon: The Targaryen dynasty can’t be held to the same standards as that of the other noble House s of Westeros. Sure – its a moral double standard to sign off on Targ incest while condemning that of Jaime and Cersei (or others). But there is no moral equivalency here. The Targaryens are/were a foreign dynasty with different customs and different attitudes which they forced upon the Westerosi with dragons and steel. It remains clearly unacceptable for Westerosi to practice incestuous behavior – simply look at the lengths Jaime and Cersei go to conceal their activity. Cersei even ruse the double standard at one point, wishing Targaryen practices were acceptable for all. But they aren’t. The taint on Myrcella and Tommen is what gives Stannis’s rebellion legitimacy. It also got Jon Arryn killed – and on and on.

As long as the Lannisters are close to the Throne, the realm cannot have peace – and peace is vary’s ultimate and only goal. He clearly believes a Targaryen Restoration is the most effective solution to this whole mess – that a clear restoration of that dynasty will bring peace to the Realm and security for the small folk. And I think martin ahs done a very good job of developing the character and slowly but conclusively revealing his motivation towards this goal.
 

 

Sorry, Stags, but I still don't think you're quite right. While Cersei and Jaime together would be unpleasant to the realm, the "taint" on Myrcella and Tommen isn't what give's Stanni's Rebellion legitimacy, it's the illegitimacy of Myrcell and Tommen that does. The fact of the matter is that Cersei is a married woman and that her children were fathered by someone other than her husband, thus making them illegitimate bastards. It doesn't matter that the father is truly Jaime for Stannis' claim. It could be Jon Arryn or Barristan Selmy for all Stannis cares. The only thing that matters is that they are not Robert's children. That is part of their parentage that matters for Stannis' claim.

That said, look at Robert himself. His claim on the throne was arguable more tenuous than the Lannister children, but he solidified it by crushing the opposition. History is dictated by the winners, and Kevan and co. only had Stannis left to eliminate before the major contention to his niece and nephews' birth was removed. (Prior to the landing of Aegon and Connington) Kevan and their supporters had very nearly finalized this process and restored at least as much a peace as Robert's reign ever was, yet we hear nothing of Varys working to destroy Robert's reign to bring the Targaryens back. Hell, if he could have removed Robert early in his reign, it would have been even easier to restore the Targaryen dynasty. No, I'm sorry, but I just can't really buy it that his game is that simple because it would have been so much more profitable to have done it so much earlier.



#33 madkasel

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:46 PM

Stag Lord said:

I strongly disagree in your assessment of Varys, LoneWanderer. If he in fact turned out to be some sort of supernatural agent of evil, I’d snort in derision. Martin has already given us the reversal with this character - he initially appeared as a sinister spymaster, allied to the Lannisters and complicit in Eddard's arrest. It was only over time that he has been revealed as one of the nobler characters in the series – motivated almost wholly by his sincere concern for the good of the realm.

Which leads me to the bone of my contention with Kennon: The Targaryen dynasty can’t be held to the same standards as that of the other noble House s of Westeros. Sure – its a moral double standard to sign off on Targ incest while condemning that of Jaime and Cersei (or others). But there is no moral equivalency here. The Targaryens are/were a foreign dynasty with different customs and different attitudes which they forced upon the Westerosi with dragons and steel. It remains clearly unacceptable for Westerosi to practice incestuous behavior – simply look at the lengths Jaime and Cersei go to conceal their activity. Cersei even ruse the double standard at one point, wishing Targaryen practices were acceptable for all. But they aren’t. The taint on Myrcella and Tommen is what gives Stannis’s rebellion legitimacy. It also got Jon Arryn killed – and on and on.

As long as the Lannisters are close to the Throne, the realm cannot have peace – and peace is vary’s ultimate and only goal. He clearly believes a Targaryen Restoration is the most effective solution to this whole mess – that a clear restoration of that dynasty will bring peace to the Realm and security for the small folk. And I think martin ahs done a very good job of developing the character and slowly but conclusively revealing his motivation towards this goal.
 

 

~ Just wondering, Chris... is Targaryan Kool Aid red or more of an orangish color?



#34 Kennon

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 01:54 PM

madkasel said:

~ Just wondering, Chris... is Targaryan Kool Aid red or more of an orangish color?

 

BWAHAHAHAHA! Quote of the week.



#35 LaughingTree

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 11:34 PM

Kennon said:

(Prior to the landing of Aegon and Connington) Kevan and their supporters had very nearly finalized this process and restored at least as much a peace as Robert's reign ever was, yet we hear nothing of Varys working to destroy Robert's reign to bring the Targaryens back. Hell, if he could have removed Robert early in his reign, it would have been even easier to restore the Targaryen dynasty. No, I'm sorry, but I just can't really buy it that his game is that simple because it would have been so much more profitable to have done it so much earlier.

 

Well the other side to this is that there would be no point in restoring Targaryens when the heir was still a kid and need a regent. To restore the Targs you would have had to wait till Dany/Aegon got old enough.



#36 Rubinon

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:17 AM

There are quite a ot lof characters that were only infants at the time of Robert's rebellion, aren't there (Dany, Jon, Robb, Aegon)? The switching of babies/concealing of true identities has developed as an ongoing theme in this series.

Maybe Aegon was double-switched by Varys (Whose name btw has a Targaryen ring to it...), so that Jon Connington was the plan B that a few people knew about (including Connington himself), but in reality the heir was hidden with the Daynes...



#37 Kennon

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 06:34 AM

LaughingTree said:

Kennon said:

(Prior to the landing of Aegon and Connington) Kevan and their supporters had very nearly finalized this process and restored at least as much a peace as Robert's reign ever was, yet we hear nothing of Varys working to destroy Robert's reign to bring the Targaryens back. Hell, if he could have removed Robert early in his reign, it would have been even easier to restore the Targaryen dynasty. No, I'm sorry, but I just can't really buy it that his game is that simple because it would have been so much more profitable to have done it so much earlier.

 

 

Well the other side to this is that there would be no point in restoring Targaryens when the heir was still a kid and need a regent. To restore the Targs you would have had to wait till Dany/Aegon got old enough.

 

Sure, but at the time there were certainly lords who supported them staunchly enough that they would have made acceptable Regents who would have then turned authority over at the heir's age of maturity without a struggle. Doran Martell comes to mind as a likely candidate.



#38 LaughingTree

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 07:51 AM

Kennon said:

 

Kennon said:

Sure, but at the time there were certainly lords who supported them staunchly enough that they would have made acceptable Regents who would have then turned authority over at the heir's age of maturity without a struggle. Doran Martell comes to mind as a likely candidate.

 

I see what you're saying but the other thing to consider is the early in Robert's reign he was still quite popular among the small folk. You also had Balon's uprising which by all accounts the whole realm really support Robert, Stannis and Ned in putting it down.  In the early years following the rebellion Houses that could have support Targ would have been mostly just the Martells and some of the smaller Crownlands and maybe some Riverlands Houses. Not enough to sustain a rebellion especially while trying to develop a new young Targ ruler. And Doran is so cautious I doubt that plan would have appealed to his "never take the field unless you know you are going win" vibe.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me strategically for Varys-Illyrio to try to replace Robert early on. Seems far more intelligent to play the long game at this point and do what they did and wait for the right moment (eg, the rebellion coalition weaking and dividing on itself).



#39 LordofBrewtown

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:44 AM

Stag Lord said:

LT: So well said. i too ahve been a big Daenerys fan since Book 1 - and have always found her the msot engagaing and fascinating character in the novels. Teh Meereenese Knot not only led to poor  and plodding plotting - it led to some bad writing; in terms of charcter development and what had been established. Many of dany's actions were clearly foolish and her refusal to heed the advcie of people she knew she could trsut liek slemy and the bloodriders was hard to beleive. You can see Martin's struggles with the plot very clearly and very painfully in the Meereen sections - and this sentiment seems to eb unviersal.

Can maybe agree on character development.  Disagree on the points in bold.  Dany acted pretty much as I've always read/interpreted her character.  Granted, she's never been a favorite of mine/I've always found her chapters hard to read (at least post-Drogo's death); but, all of her actions were pretty much exactly what I expected of her.  

 

Stag Lord said:

Lone wanderer; fully agree on Darth Stannis. There is very little i am sure about after closing teh Dance, but one thing is that Bolton's letter is mostly lies adn Satnnis does not die off screen in the dark and snow. Martin ahs invested way too much in the character for him to go out like that.

I too would be extremely disappointed if Stannis is dead.  I actually like his character quite a lot.  Please, GRRM, just have Dany fall off Drogon or die, and end it with Stannis on the Iron Throne. 



#40 LordofBrewtown

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:50 AM

Kennon said:

madkasel said:

 

~ Just wondering, Chris... is Targaryan Kool Aid red or more of an orangish color?

 

 

 

BWAHAHAHAHA! Quote of the week.

 

Hah, just reading trhough the thread now & was about to post; but waited to read the rest of the thread - Drew's response was better than what I was going to post  






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