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Operation SeeLowe!!!!


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#1 Dcal12

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:48 AM

Answers questions...changes things big time....gives a history....WOW!!!!

Loth is 30 points

Reaction fire

Close combat!!!

The building rules look great!!!

WOW!  I am so excited about this game, it is just great and keeps getting better.



#2 Loophole Master

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:25 AM

What? The Luther's Kampfzange is not range C?



#3 Loophole Master

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:54 AM

- Charge is no longer Move+Move+free square+attack with range 1 weapons? Now it's just Move+Move+attack ? Why?!

- Phase weapons doesn't seem that great. Big chance of not doing any damage, and sustained fire suffers a bit. At least it ignores cover.

- Buildings seem to work similarly to Last Night on Earth.

- Love the Reactive Fire rule. Really adds some extra tension, without breaking the game. Am I right that you can't use it at the start or at the end of your opponent's turn, only at the middle?

- Heroic Attack. More like Heroic Defense, hero and his squad are completely invulnerable for one round! By round they mean a whole round, where every single unit on the table is activated? Wow.



#4 [So]Rice

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 09:13 AM

Anyone know who all the heros are?

Sigrid Von Thaler and Bazooka Joe (Operation Blue Thunder)

Manfred and Rosie (Operation Cyclone)

Markus and Ozz 117 (Operation See Lowe)

Stefan and One-Eyed Johnny (Promo Packs)

Totenmeister and Action Jackson (???)

Grenadier X and The Preist (???)

 

Maybe new heros being released seperately?



#5 Winter79

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 10:26 AM

Love this. Great to see the gaming grow from strenght to strenght.

- The background is fantastic. I hope its the start of more.

- Agree with Loophole with the disappointment with the change to charge. I love the base set - the out of the box armies are balanced , but in my gaming group we have come to the conclusion two minor changes were needed to balance 1) Hero's can't join BBQ squards. We play this and it really helps balance. 2) The Luther is a bit under powered (you would always take a second Ludwig instead) and the charge ability could have been upgraded to make this a better unit. Auto re-rolls on the claw attack would make it a scary tank even for another tank to approach or even giving the Luther fast. This change makes the Luther an even less likely choice.  

- Love the fact that this expansion makes the units different and very happy that phaser is not the same as laser. Cyclone having all troops types are being identical - although good for balancing was hardly an interesting development for the sidesA fear that both armies would continue to be very similar has not been realised.

- A another concern is the Apes - I would love a random squard of apes, but without the ape hero they are going to die very quickly. Its bad enough that their are only 3 of them and armour 3 is only very slightly better than 2 (it only reduces multi-shot weapons), but when the apes attack they can be attacked back.(the standard solider squard has 5 return dice against an attack) I guess they do have 12 dice against infantry and 6 against tanks and they are less points than BBQ squard. But I do wish they would have been a bit tougher for the story side.  I want the allies (who are the from our games are the slightly better of the two sides) to fear the apes. They absorb bullet after bullet before finally been taken down. But they are more of a once or twice use suicide squard. Against a Gunners squard (without UGL) roll 5 Dice against standard infantry (inc bazooka). Against Apes 5 Dice, but there is only three of them!. Rangers alittle better 7 Dice vs 5 Dice against apes, but again only 3 apes so you hitting much less. Against Grim Reapers DEAD DEAD DEAD. No Match. 9 Dice at range. At close combat so like for like. Grims have 12 Dice (3 from gun and 1 from power punch) against Apes - apes have 6 back. At range 1 no match at range 4 no match in any sense of the word. Slight Concerned that the allies will continue to grow in strenght.  Would have liked apes to have been more points and tougher with multiple health points each. Have to wait for the zombie rules vs tank buster to see howv they fair. (this is based upon the leaked stat's cards)

 

But I'm being critical because actually as a miniture game is simple and fun and really needs to remain balanced to remain good.

 

 

-  



#6 Loophole Master

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:29 PM

 - Wow, Damage Resilient just got significantly more powerful. Now, not only is this ability shared with a joined squad, but it is no longer ineffective against flamethrowers, artillery and close combat weapons.

- Wonder if the two extra squares of movement of Scout Vehicles can be diagonals.

- Quite confused about the Wiederleben Serum. The hero can only recover from wounds suffered in a previous combat? But it needs to inflict wounds in order order to regenerate, so in the example the only reason it regenerates is because BBQ attacks with close combat weapons, thus allowing the hero to retaliate. Dunno, this could have been much simpler....

- Not sure about the limitations of attacks between the inside and outside of buildings. The whole "square that shows an exit in the direction of the attack" seems very vague. Can you attack at a completely flat angle?

 

All in all a pretty mixed bag. Love the Reactive Fire and the buildings, but Phaser seems weak (isn't it supposed to "burn everything it touches, friend or foe"? rules say nothing about this), new and revised abilities seem a bit off and the scenarios are a bit too large for my tastes.



#7 blkdymnd

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:38 PM

 on the scout move, it would be like any other i would think. 1st diagonal is one square of move and each other diagonal is 2.

 

my big question is jump infantry. they can jump over any structure.  so they can jump a hangar which takes up a full 9 x 9 tile?



#8 Major Mishap

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:55 PM

- Scout vehicles would follow normal rules unless dictated otherwise i.e. having the Agile trait.

- jumping infantry.  The rules say they can't land on a building, so would need to be able to travel 4 squares to do so, the rules say the can jump over structures, a hanger (3x3 tile) is a structure, so can be jumped.



#9 Poyet

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 11:38 PM

 

Loophole Master said: Published on 6/14/2011 - 13:54:13

- Charge is no longer Move+Move+free square+attack with range 1 weapons? Now it's just Move+Move+attack ? Why?!

 

i think that difference is - move+move+free square+ CC vs. new -move + move + attack with cc AND 1 range weapon.

I prefer old ruling btw. Now its just limited version of "fast" i wonder how will they balance it out .

 

Monkeys can end up squishy without Marcus but with him and his 6 wounds should do just fine. 



#10 Major Mishap

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:05 AM

I can't see the problem people are having with the Phaser, on average it will mathamatically do exactly the same damage as anything else rolling the same number of dice, but has the potential to do much more.  For example:

Pounder with 6/1 will on average score 2 hits (1/3)

Phaser rolls the same dice and on average get the same 2 hits, but it then rolls 6 dice for damage, again will on average score 2 hits.  But if you get lucky you could score up to 18 hits against the Pounders 6.



#11 Moiterei_1984

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:25 AM

Major Mishap said:

Phaser rolls the same dice and on average get the same 2 hits, but it then rolls 6 dice for damage, again will on average score 2 hits.  But if you get lucky you could score up to 18 hits against the Pounders 6.

What kind of dice do you use? I´m lucky with one ore two success rolls ^^



#12 Loophole Master

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 01:37 AM

Poyet said:

I prefer old ruling btw. Now Charge its just limited version of "fast" i wonder how will they balance it out .

Indeed, now the result is exactly like Fast, but you can only use it to get adjacent to an enemy. I really think I'll stick to the old version, otherwise the Loth is less than useless...

 

Major Mishap said:

- Scout vehicles would follow normal rules unless dictated otherwise i.e. having the Agile trait.

- jumping infantry. The rules say they can't land on a building, so would need to be able to travel 4 squares to do so, the rules say the can jump over structures, a hanger (3x3 tile) is a structure, so can be jumped.

Yeah, I guess the extra movement of Scouts is used normally. I was just wondering if it might be like the old free squares in Charge. Probably not the case, though.

As for infantry jumping buildings, from what I understood, since they can't land on the roof, they need to have enough Move to cross the structure and land on the other side. So a jumping squad with Move 1 cannot jump clearly over a hangar. The rules say that Jump works just like normal movement, only ignoring obstacles, so I don't see why a jumper would get free movement squares just because he's jumping over a large structure. A squad with Move 2, however, can jump across a hangar with a double Move, they just can't cross it diagonally.

I still think the phasers seem weak, unless the actual stats are better than what I imagine. Have we seen the stat card for that light walker? So far all I know is that it does 2*3 against armor 2 infantry, which averages at 0.6 hits per attack. Sustained fire averages 1.3 hits per attack (and no matter how many reroll abilities you stack, you'll never go higher than a 2-hit average). Compare this to a Luther's Flak with a 6/1 attack that averages 2 hits per attack, 4 with sustained fire. It's even worse than a .30 with a 3/1 attack, averaging 1 hit per attack, 2 hits on sustained attack. I don't think ignoring cover quite makes up for it. The mechanic is fine, but the stats needed to be a bit higher to reflect the lethality described in the fluff.



#13 Loophole Master

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:22 AM

Major Mishap said:

Pounder with 6/1 will on average score 2 hits (1/3)

Phaser rolls the same dice and on average get the same 2 hits, but it then rolls 6 dice for damage, again will on average score 2 hits.  But if you get lucky you could score up to 18 hits against the Pounders 6.

Are you saying that against an Armor 4 vehicle the phaser does 6*3? Where have you seen the complete stat card? If that's the case, then it is as I said, the mechanic is fine, as long as the actual stats are beefed up. 2*3 against infantry isn't very special (on average you'll score no hits at all), but if it's 6*3 against tanks, then it's an awesome tank-busting weapon.



#14 blkdymnd

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:26 AM

Loophole Master said:

Major Mishap said:

Pounder with 6/1 will on average score 2 hits (1/3)

 

Phaser rolls the same dice and on average get the same 2 hits, but it then rolls 6 dice for damage, again will on average score 2 hits.  But if you get lucky you could score up to 18 hits against the Pounders 6.

 

Are you saying that against an Armor 4 vehicle the phaser does 6*3? Where have you seen the complete stat card? If that's the case, then it is as I said, the mechanic is fine, as long as the actual stats are beefed up. 2*3 against infantry isn't very special (on average you'll score no hits at all), but if it's 6*3 against tanks, then it's an awesome tank-busting weapon.

its supposed to be the tank buster, the other walker is the anti infantry one.



#15 Loophole Master

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:44 AM

blkdymnd said:

its supposed to be the tank buster, the other walker is the anti infantry one.

Oh, all right. That changes matters. I'd just like to know where the 6*3 figure comes from.



#16 Major Mishap

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:02 AM

Loophole Master said:

Major Mishap said:

Pounder with 6/1 will on average score 2 hits (1/3)

 

Phaser rolls the same dice and on average get the same 2 hits, but it then rolls 6 dice for damage, again will on average score 2 hits.  But if you get lucky you could score up to 18 hits against the Pounders 6.

 

Are you saying that against an Armor 4 vehicle the phaser does 6*3? Where have you seen the complete stat card? If that's the case, then it is as I said, the mechanic is fine, as long as the actual stats are beefed up. 2*3 against infantry isn't very special (on average you'll score no hits at all), but if it's 6*3 against tanks, then it's an awesome tank-busting weapon.

Nope, not saying that at all.  All I'm saying is that  if the Phaser attacks with the same number of dice as any other weapon, its average hits will be the same but with the possibility of doing trilple the amount.



#17 Loophole Master

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:19 AM

Major Mishap said:

All I'm saying is that  if the Phaser attacks with the same number of dice as any other weapon, its average hits will be the same but with the possibility of doing trilple the amount.

Ah, but the phaser doesn't attack with the same number of dice. Using the one stat line we know about: 2*3 against armor 2 infantry, that is most certainly not the same as 6/1. The phaser weapon first rolls the 2 aim dice, which on average will result in less than 1 hit. Then multiply those hits by 3 and roll that amount of attack dice. So again, on average this will result in 0.6 hits on a normal attack, and 1.3 hits on a sustained attack. While a 6/1 weapons averages 2 hits, 4 hits with sustained. The max damage this phaser attack can do is the same also: 6 hits, not 18.



#18 Major Mishap

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:34 AM

Loophole Master said:

Poyet said:

I prefer old ruling btw. Now Charge its just limited version of "fast" i wonder how will they balance it out .

 

Indeed, now the result is exactly like Fast, but you can only use it to get adjacent to an enemy. I really think I'll stick to the old version, otherwise the Loth is less than useless...

 

Major Mishap said:

- Scout vehicles would follow normal rules unless dictated otherwise i.e. having the Agile trait.

 

- jumping infantry. The rules say they can't land on a building, so would need to be able to travel 4 squares to do so, the rules say the can jump over structures, a hanger (3x3 tile) is a structure, so can be jumped.

 

Yeah, I guess the extra movement of Scouts is used normally. I was just wondering if it might be like the old free squares in Charge. Probably not the case, though.

As for infantry jumping buildings, from what I understood, since they can't land on the roof, they need to have enough Move to cross the structure and land on the other side. So a jumping squad with Move 1 cannot jump clearly over a hangar. The rules say that Jump works just like normal movement, only ignoring obstacles, so I don't see why a jumper would get free movement squares just because he's jumping over a large structure. A squad with Move 2, however, can jump across a hangar with a double Move, they just can't cross it diagonally.

I still think the phasers seem weak, unless the actual stats are better than what I imagine. Have we seen the stat card for that light walker? So far all I know is that it does 2*3 against armor 2 infantry, which averages at 0.6 hits per attack. Sustained fire averages 1.3 hits per attack (and no matter how many reroll abilities you stack, you'll never go higher than a 2-hit average). Compare this to a Luther's Flak with a 6/1 attack that averages 2 hits per attack, 4 with sustained fire. It's even worse than a .30 with a 3/1 attack, averaging 1 hit per attack, 2 hits on sustained attack. I don't think ignoring cover quite makes up for it. The mechanic is fine, but the stats needed to be a bit higher to reflect the lethality described in the fluff.

Loophole Master said:

Poyet said:

I prefer old ruling btw. Now Charge its just limited version of "fast" i wonder how will they balance it out .

 

Indeed, now the result is exactly like Fast, but you can only use it to get adjacent to an enemy. I really think I'll stick to the old version, otherwise the Loth is less than useless...

 

Major Mishap said:

- Scout vehicles would follow normal rules unless dictated otherwise i.e. having the Agile trait.

 

- jumping infantry. The rules say they can't land on a building, so would need to be able to travel 4 squares to do so, the rules say the can jump over structures, a hanger (3x3 tile) is a structure, so can be jumped.

 

Yeah, I guess the extra movement of Scouts is used normally. I was just wondering if it might be like the old free squares in Charge. Probably not the case, though.

As for infantry jumping buildings, from what I understood, since they can't land on the roof, they need to have enough Move to cross the structure and land on the other side. So a jumping squad with Move 1 cannot jump clearly over a hangar. The rules say that Jump works just like normal movement, only ignoring obstacles, so I don't see why a jumper would get free movement squares just because he's jumping over a large structure. A squad with Move 2, however, can jump across a hangar with a double Move, they just can't cross it diagonally.

I still think the phasers seem weak, unless the actual stats are better than what I imagine. Have we seen the stat card for that light walker? So far all I know is that it does 2*3 against armor 2 infantry, which averages at 0.6 hits per attack. Sustained fire averages 1.3 hits per attack (and no matter how many reroll abilities you stack, you'll never go higher than a 2-hit average). Compare this to a Luther's Flak with a 6/1 attack that averages 2 hits per attack, 4 with sustained fire. It's even worse than a .30 with a 3/1 attack, averaging 1 hit per attack, 2 hits on sustained attack. I don't think ignoring cover quite makes up for it. The mechanic is fine, but the stats needed to be a bit higher to reflect the lethality described in the fluff.

No one said units get free movement when jumping. :?

And you maths or rules are off.  To get your results you would need to re-roll all your dice in a sustained attack, you only re-roll the misses or /1 would generate 1 hit on average, re-roll the 2 missed dice and that may add another another 1 to a maximum of 3

The Honey's 2~3, might generate on average 1 hit, but has the possibility of 6, possibly twice as many hits.  I'm guessing the low first number would indicate that the weapon is inaccurate, but if it gets a good hit could do lots of damage.  We'll have to see what its like against other targets.



#19 Major Mishap

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:37 AM

Loophole Master said:

Major Mishap said:

All I'm saying is that  if the Phaser attacks with the same number of dice as any other weapon, its average hits will be the same but with the possibility of doing trilple the amount.

 

Ah, but the phaser doesn't attack with the same number of dice. Using the one stat line we know about: 2*3 against armor 2 infantry, that is most certainly not the same as 6/1. The phaser weapon first rolls the 2 aim dice, which on average will result in less than 1 hit. Then multiply those hits by 3 and roll that amount of attack dice. So again, on average this will result in 0.6 hits on a normal attack, and 1.3 hits on a sustained attack. While a 6/1 weapons averages 2 hits, 4 hits with sustained. The max damage this phaser attack can do is the same also: 6 hits, not 18.

Using that stat line, yes, it would be a maximum of six hits - I wasn't using that stat but a hypothetical one of a 6 dice attack, we do not know what its effect against other troops is.



#20 Loophole Master

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 06:43 AM

Yeah, I'm hoping it's considerably more effective against walkers, as it's supposed to be a tank buster. You're right, my math regarding sustained fire is off.






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