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Inspired by Mark of the Xenos: Tau Battlesuit brainstorming


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#21 Calgor Grim

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 07:43 AM

Surak:

Glad he did his job then. 

 

Regarding Weapon Jinx: the ability by itself is somewhat overpowered in this context. While it works when heretics are fighting scattered thugs with possibly primitive weapons and can jam those, I don't agree with it being massively crippling against highly advanced suits full of technology, AI and secondary systems. I would perhaps state that due to superior engineering or it being Xenos technology that it is a little exempt from the confusing ways of the warp or slightly resistant (maybe a D10 roll to shrug it off). Anyway, jam the weapons all you want, it's a battle suit the same size as a dreadnought. It can do just as much damage kicking you across the base back and forth.

 

Your counter though, is that the while the Tau don't have any psykers and have limited understanding of psykers and the like, they do have allied races who are psykers. The select Kroot who eat Eldar or Tyranids, the Nicassar. A good argument that I read on the Tau forums (spelling errors and all):

 

 

 

At the end of the day other races in 40K can save against psychic powers using inv saves, and technology helps fight psychers (psyche out grenades etc) so why would the Tau not be able to develop a force field generator that dispupts psychic energy, (because thats all it is a form of energy). The Tau would have no trouble analysing and adapting other races solutions to the problems of countering psychics with techno.

Tau could in theory develop something somewhere which can start to work against Psykers using knowledge gained from allies. They likely also get hold of the odd bits of human technology and while perhaps not able to reverse engineer, may still be able to bolt a null rod onto their armour.

 

 

LordBlades:

Might I ask why you have made the damage for when a Riptide goes wrong toughness damage? Surely this should be physical damage as the suit overloads. I understand that when a Riptide fails its reactor, its the radiation and exhaust venting therefore heat and such damage key components. Was this a mistype? Additionally I made my variant a straight damage roll, no toughness check to shrug it off. This is arguably the trade off for the immense power one of these suits has.

 

Also don't get me started on that AV20 for a R'Varna...pain. I would consider reducing that a little. I used a Carnifex as a basis for when I generated my variant of the Riptide since (AFAIK, not seeing new Nid 6th ed), Fexes are roughly the same armour and toughness as a Riptide and are both monstrous creatures hence should have similar stats in that department. These should be able to go toe to toe with a fex and make for a semi ok punch up but the problem is, your AV 20 and total toughness bonus of 18, this means that the 1D10+23, Pen 3 of Scything Talons cannot break through. Also without Touched by Fates, the fex cannot RF to even remotely crack that armour. Technically this is a blow to monstrous creatures in general that they cannot crack these even though they can smash vehicles up on table top. I made my riptide variants around 12-16 each.

 

May want to bump their sizes up from Enormous to "Massive". If Enormous is a standard XV-8 and riptides are roughly double their height it could put them into that size bracket.

 

Love the XV-22 by the way. Might have to augment it a little though. Their Armour 8 is also a little low. Since you're using DoW as a basis for that, DoW did have an armour type of "Commander" which was higher than Infantry_Heavy (Terminator type). At your discretion you may want to raise that a little. Also DoW allowed an option for Iridium Armour. I might make that to be an Equipment upgrade (add X to armour, reduce movement slightly or something). Will definitely need to use that.

 

Overall though I love much of the sheet. Might redo a few of those for my own ends because a few things just don't sit right with me but thats just me :)


Edited by Calgor Grim, 27 January 2014 - 07:56 AM.

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#22 LordBlades

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 10:41 AM


LordBlades:

Might I ask why you have made the damage for when a Riptide goes wrong toughness damage? Surely this should be physical damage as the suit overloads. I understand that when a Riptide fails its reactor, its the radiation and exhaust venting therefore heat and such damage key components. Was this a mistype? Additionally I made my variant a straight damage roll, no toughness check to shrug it off. This is arguably the trade off for the immense power one of these suits has.

 

Also don't get me started on that AV20 for a R'Varna...pain. I would consider reducing that a little. I used a Carnifex as a basis for when I generated my variant of the Riptide since (AFAIK, not seeing new Nid 6th ed), Fexes are roughly the same armour and toughness as a Riptide and are both monstrous creatures hence should have similar stats in that department. These should be able to go toe to toe with a fex and make for a semi ok punch up but the problem is, your AV 20 and total toughness bonus of 18, this means that the 1D10+23, Pen 3 of Scything Talons cannot break through. Also without Touched by Fates, the fex cannot RF to even remotely crack that armour. Technically this is a blow to monstrous creatures in general that they cannot crack these even though they can smash vehicles up on table top. I made my riptide variants around 12-16 each.

 

May want to bump their sizes up from Enormous to "Massive". If Enormous is a standard XV-8 and riptides are roughly double their height it could put them into that size bracket.

 

Love the XV-22 by the way. Might have to augment it a little though. Their Armour 8 is also a little low. Since you're using DoW as a basis for that, DoW did have an armour type of "Commander" which was higher than Infantry_Heavy (Terminator type). At your discretion you may want to raise that a little. Also DoW allowed an option for Iridium Armour. I might make that to be an Equipment upgrade (add X to armour, reduce movement slightly or something). Will definitely need to use that.

 

Overall though I love much of the sheet. Might redo a few of those for my own ends because a few things just don't sit right with me but thats just me :)

 

Regarding the Riptide and Toughness damage: I wanted to keep existing mechanics where I found them. AS far as I could find from the fluff, the main danger of nova-charge is potentially dangerous levels of radiation for the pilot (I've found nothing to imply actual battlesuit damage). The only place where I could find radiation damage was the Rad grenade in Rogue Trader, so I use the mechanics from there (Toughness test or take Toughness damage).

 

Regarding R'varna: In tabletop R'varna has 2+ armor save (like the Riptide, despite having 'much heavier armor'). I modeled the Riptide's armor based on fluff (on par with terminators, which reflects the 2+ it has in tabletop), then added Unnatural Toughness x3 to get the effect I wanted (strongly resistant to all but heaviest anti-tank weapons of the Imperium, based on the description of the assault of Agrellan). I don't think I could have gotten much lower with the R'varna and still keep the 'much heavier armor fluff'. In the end, I ended up with something a bit more powerful than a Dreadnought, which is all right in my book.

 

Regarding the size: On the one hand, they're significantly larger than Crisis and Broadside, which would point toward massive. On the other hand. I don't see a Riptide as larger overall than a Land Raider (which is Enormous). I went with Enormous, but I can see some good arguments for Massive too.

 

Regarding the XV22: glad you like it :D  In tabletop it has 3+ armor save, which puts it between Fire Warrior Armor (4+ save) and Broadsides (2+ save). In Deathwatch this would mean any value between 7(Fire Warrior Armor has all 6) and 11 (Broadside has all 12) could be appropriate. I went with 8 for game balance reasons (all of this was written for a hybrid RT/DW game) and I didn't want an XV22 to be strictly better than power armor in every way because then everybody would start plotting to get one.



#23 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 11:55 AM

Strictly translating the TT stats in the way that Deathwatch usually does it, the Riptide should be something like

 

Strength 60, Unnatural Strength x2

Toughness 60, Unnatural Toughness x3

All other stats appropriate for Fire Warrior veteran

Wounds 160

Armour 12 (all)

 

Heavy burst cannon = same as pulse rifle, but higher RoF

Heavy burst cannon in nova mode = same as heavy burst cannon + Storm + Overheats

 

Ion accelerator = same as Astartes plasma gun on Maximal  but semi-auto RoF3 and no Overheats

Ion acceletrator in nova mode = range something, RoF S/-/-, 5d10+10ish, AP10, Blast (5) + Overheats


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 27 January 2014 - 11:56 AM.


#24 Calgor Grim

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:03 PM

I suppose FFG have nerfed Tyranids a fair bit. Still would consider their armour a little lower though and raise their height a notch. The Black Crusade charts are not far off:

 

Enormous (6) (Sentinel Walker, Krootox)
Massive (7) (Battle Tank, Greater Daemon)
 
If battlesuits count as a 6 and a Riptide is larger than a battlesuit by about double, this roughly would make them around the same size as a greater daemon etc but yes there are arguments for both. RE the reactor, this comes from some of the wording from the codex. The reactor is described as:
 

 

 

...producing energy on scales closer to small stars...

 

This means they must surely be giving out masses of heat unless Tau have mastered cold fusion or something. It mentions that the suit can suffer dangerous power vents. These I would imagine are probably the core venting heat and such out of the system before it overheats and goes boom. Radiation would yes likely be kicked out but the description suggests more like heat or an electronic overload. But again this is up to the GM to interpret. Considering these things dish out a metric plasmaton of damage anything to balance it in player favour is worth it.

 

Also to bogi, I disagree. The Ion Accelerator is MORE powerful than the vehicle variant (having better AP and extra range with the same number of shots than an Ion Cannon in the codex). Hence using the vehicle version actually makes sense. I have actually adjusted range and RoF down to give players a chance of survival.


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#25 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:33 PM


 

Also to bogi, I disagree. The Ion Accelerator is MORE powerful than the vehicle variant (having better AP and extra range with the same number of shots than an Ion Cannon in the codex). Hence using the vehicle version actually makes sense. I have actually adjusted range and RoF down to give players a chance of survival.

 

I'm converting over from memory. Isn't it S9 AP2 in nova mode? That's the same as a lascannon, so I just gave it those stats.



#26 Calgor Grim

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 02:52 PM

Yes, with it's buff it's like a Las Cannon, Large Blast template which is probably what, Blast (5) for Deathwatch?


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#27 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:05 PM

Yes, with it's buff it's like a Las Cannon, Large Blast template which is probably what, Blast (5) for Deathwatch?

 

5 is frag missiles, I think (regular blast?).



#28 Calgor Grim

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 05:01 PM

In that case probably something like Blast (8) then...ouch.


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#29 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 11:04 PM

I think I'd give the heavy burst cannon Devastating (1) in nova-charge mode to make it more of a Horde killer (to give it a real advantage over Blast (8)).



#30 Calgor Grim

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 07:18 AM

Hmm, might go with that actually. RoF 15 with Devastating (1) meaning a theoretical maximum of dropping a hoard by 30 points...if I understood magnitudes correctly.


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#31 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 11:32 AM

It's unlikely to ever get that many DoS, unless the horde is truly enormous. Which is why I would give it Storm.

 

Assuming pre-errata weapon stats, I would go with something like (based on the stats for the regular burst cannon)

 

Heavy burst cannon: -/-/10 2d10+3 E Pen 4 Storm

Heavy burst cannon, nova mode: -/-/10 2d10+3 E Pen 4 Devastating (1) Storm Twin-Linked

 

(I know it's not twin-linked in TT but it's hard to represent this volume of fire otherwise.)


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 29 January 2014 - 11:32 AM.


#32 LordBlades

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 01:56 AM

IIRC (need to recheck when I get home) the heavy burst cannon in tabletop has the same S and AP as an Astartes Krak Grenade. I believe it's where I took the damage for my version.

#33 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:38 PM

Unless my memory is messing with me, it has the same stats as a regular Tau burst cannon, but higher rate of fire and -- Rending in nova charge mode?


Edited by bogi_khaosa, 30 January 2014 - 02:39 PM.


#34 LordBlades

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:38 PM

Unless my memory is messing with me, it has the same stats as a regular Tau burst cannon, but higher rate of fire and -- Rending in nova charge mode?

Nope. Burst cannon is S5 AP 5, Heavy Burst is S6 AP 4.



#35 Unusualsuspect

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:43 PM

Another Tau player here...

 

Concerning the Riptide's stats, I would look towards the Dreadknight for inspiration - stat-wise, they are almost identical, with the Riptide slower in close combat (probably lower agility, i would think) but able to take a bit more punishment (1 more wound).

 

As a very basic concept, it would look something like this for the base suit:

RIPTIDE BATTLESUIT

 

The Riptide Battlesuit increases the pilot's Size to Enormous.  Maybe one step higher?

 

The Riptide's pilot does not use his own Strength, Toughness, Agility, or Wounds while in the Riptide.  Instead, he uses the Riptide's Strength of 70, Toughness of 75, and Agility of 30.  The Riptide has Unnatural Strength (x3), Unnatural Toughness (x3) and 120 Wounds.  If the Riptide is reduced to 0 wounds it is destroyed.  The pilot is also reduced to 0 wounds and he must burn a Fate point to survive.

 

Probably should have an armour of 15 to match the Dreadknight.  R'varna might register 16, but then again, might not... instead, he'd have Unnatural Toughness (x4), which does a fine job of making him tough as nails.

 

The Riptide incorporates a powerful shield generator with a Protection Rating of 35.  Up to you if you make it Best Quality like the Dreadknight's.

 

The Riptide comes equipped with Jump Jets, allowing it to use the normal jump jet troops movement profile.

 

As for the nova generator, I kinda like the toughness test, especially if using the suit's toughness.  Something like a Difficult (-10) Toughness test would put it at roughly a 2/3 chance of success, mirroring the suit in the tabletop game.  Inflicting wounds on a failure only also matches the tabletop, and with Tau experimental weaponry in general - potent, but sometimes it'll explode on you.

 

The Ion Accelerator basically has 3 modes.  I'd steal the Ion Cannon's rules and give it slightly higher pen.  I'd find the rules for Battle Cannons (there has to be stats somewhere for a Leman Russ with a Battle Cannon) and give it slightly higher pen.  For the Nova profile, Lascannon with Blast 8ish.

 

Hmm.  Heavy Burst Cannon... Storm for sure, Heavy 15 sounds good enough, with Assault Cannon stats to start.  Give it Tearing and perhaps Twin-Linked for the noval profile.

 

 

And yeah, that's an opponent that just might help a space marine know fear.


Edited by Unusualsuspect, 01 February 2014 - 09:58 PM.


#36 Surak

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:39 AM

Ok people,

 

To save starting another New Tau Stat-line related thread I thought I'd carry on this one.

 

 I'm having trouble with a particularly powerful Psyker PC (nearly ascended Sanctioned Psyker) as the Tau simply have no way of dealing with a powerful psyker with the current rules. My solution two this is four-fold.

 

The first i solution I've tried is having Kroot around who have eaten alot of Ork's, and shapers who have had an unhealthy amount of Weird-boy steak, to produce weak psykic Kroot.

 

The second solution I can think of it also Kroot related, but this time have them snacking on Eldar.

 

The third possible solution is using human auxillary psykers (a simple but boring option in my opinion)

 

The real out-there forth option is to somehow stat up the Tau's Nicassar allies from Battle Fleet Gothic.

 

Has anyone here attempted any of the above options, and if not does anyone fancy having a go at stating any of the above options up - I'm willing to use my current players as test-victims.

 

Regards

 

Surak


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#37 Calgor Grim

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:31 AM

Nothing says that force fields in Deathwatch cannot negate psychic powers. Anything with a shield generator can legitimately take a save against a power. Table top for example allows an Invulnerable save anyway. Additionally since shield drones and generators are common in Tau tech this allows chance to deny him a walk over. Consider also the Tau may have been able to acquire some Imperium Anti-psyker tech (eg null rods, psych out grenades etc) and although not understand it due to their limited comprehension of the warp, either reverse engineer to a lesser degree or integrate as is into their technology. Could apply the same result of the items at reduced effectiveness.

Thing is though, Psykers are potent but they will still become dust to a direct hit from a 3D10 + Silly, railgun from a broadside way out of range. Not many powers go beyond 300m!

Edited by Calgor Grim, 03 February 2014 - 10:32 AM.

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#38 Surak

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:38 AM

Nothing says that force fields in Deathwatch cannot negate psychic powers. Anything with a shield generator can legitimately take a save against a power. Table top for example allows an Invulnerable save anyway. Additionally since shield drones and generators are common in Tau tech this allows chance to deny him a walk over. Consider also the Tau may have been able to acquire some Imperium Anti-psyker tech (eg null rods, psych out grenades etc) and although not understand it due to their limited comprehension of the warp, either reverse engineer to a lesser degree or integrate as is into their technology. Could apply the same result of the items at reduced effectiveness.

Thing is though, Psykers are potent but they will still become dust to a direct hit from a 3D10 + Silly, railgun from a broadside way out of range. Not many powers go beyond 300m!

 

THe main probelm I have with the Psyker isn't the direct damage he causes - that is actually fairly low most of the time - its the fact he can make himself and anyone close to him completely invisable to any sort of artificial senses - which means all Tau unless they are Firewarriors with their helmet off or an Etherial. Now obviously Kroot mitigate this problem to a degree, but having a player who can stand right in front of a Riptide and not actually be worried does get a tad silly.

 

I don't want to completely negate the player because he has made an effective character, I just want o keep there current mission challenging fo the players - on a side note I probably should mention I'm using DH1 characters with the OW combat system, their mission from their Inquisitor just happens to have brought them into the Reach.

 

Regards

 

Surak


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My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

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#39 Calgor Grim

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:27 AM

What power(s) are they using to achieve this result? Closest I can find to invisibility is "See Me Not" from DH, Invisibility from OW and that tech jinx thing from DH. Depending what they are using we can probably find a counter to them.


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#40 Surak

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:22 AM

Calgor,

 

All of his powers are from DH1, I've not let hime get his hands on the OW powers

 

His current power list as I remember it (and that are relivent to this issue, he's got ALOT of powers)

 

Minors - Chameleon, Forget Me, Wall Walk (surprisingly problematic), Weapon Jinx, White Noise

 

Majors - Preternatural Awareness, Compel, Dominate, See Me Not

 

As he's running around with Psy Rating 6 and has a knack for not rolling 9's he quite often is able to sustain multiple powers at once (I think his current record is 5)

 

He's alos got a Psi-focus and Force Staff

 

Regards

 

Surak


Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA





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