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So, how do power fists work?


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#1 Nephilm

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 08:59 AM

The weapons table says they (and chainfists) double the SB that gets added to damage, and their text description says that power fists increase the wielder's unnatural strength multiplier by one.

Now, applying both of those would mean that on a marine with 50ish strength a hit would do 2d10+34 damage per hit, before taking into account any other bonuses from talents and weapon quality.

Breakdown:

[2d10 + ((5*3)+2)*2]

Normal SB 5 from 50~ strength, tripled from Unnatural Strength x(2+1), plus 2 from armour (+20), all that doubled due to powerfist description.

And well, this seems rather excessive. While I can totally see it as something that'd wreck a tank, it renders other melee weapons irrelevant as damage dealers.

Of course, you could also assume that the "doubles strength" is an extension of the "increases unnatural strength by 1" description in the text, but going by the newest Living Errata that'd mean that Thunder Hammers are better than Power Fists in every way, since they cost the same, yet do more damage and add the perma-stun concussion ability in addition to being more versatile (as they allow the use of the hand outside of combat).

So, uh... thoughts?

 

 

 

 



#2 LORD SHARICK

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:49 AM

HAIL BROTHER NEPHILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........ACTUALLY YOU JUST CHANGE THE UNNATURAL STR TO x3 INSTEAD OF MULTIPLIYNG THE DAMAGE X 2, SO AS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EXAMPLE A BATTLE BROTHER WITH STR 50 WILL ONLY GET A +15 STR DMG + POWER FIST BONUS, WITHOUT MULTIPLYING IT AGAIN x 2............MAY THE RUSS AN THE ALLFATHER GUIDE YOU BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



#3 Nephilm

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:57 AM

LORD SHARICK said:

HAIL BROTHER NEPHILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........ACTUALLY YOU JUST CHANGE THE UNNATURAL STR TO x3 INSTEAD OF MULTIPLIYNG THE DAMAGE X 2, SO AS YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR EXAMPLE A BATTLE BROTHER WITH STR 50 WILL ONLY GET A +15 STR DMG + POWER FIST BONUS, WITHOUT MULTIPLYING IT AGAIN x 2............MAY THE RUSS AN THE ALLFATHER GUIDE YOU BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Then there would be no reason to take a power fist over a thunder hammer ever?



#4 herichimo

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:49 AM

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.


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#5 Lucius Valerius

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:20 PM

herichimo said:

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

When that makes a difference betwen survive or roll a new character, you take this kind of things into consideration.



#6 Nephilm

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:21 PM

herichimo said:

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.



#7 Brand

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:00 PM

Nephilm said:

herichimo said:

 

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

 

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.

Don't worry, the Thunder Hammer is insanely overpowered, and any Space Marine with half a brain would take it over any of the other melee weapons offered.  I'm really hoping that it gets rebalanced soon.  The damage and increase of SB is nasty enough, but the Concussive quality just takes it way over the top.  About the only melee weapon that is roughly on par would be a Force weapon wielded by a Librarian, especially one of high rank (now that's really overpowered).



#8 herichimo

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 08:49 PM

Nephilm said:

herichimo said:

 

Stop thinking like a tabletop player. Start thinking like a role-player.

Would you rather punch a hive tyrant in the face with a giant glowing fist of doom, or smash a chaos maring over the head with a giant pulsing warhammer?

Take what you want, "which is better" be damned.

 

 

It's not about "what is better," but about the differences that'd lead me to take something instead of another. What we have here is a case of something that's mechanically better than something else for the same cost, no drawbacks, same gimmick. Of course it's ultimately about what you find aesthetically more pleasing, which would lead you for instance to take a relic blade with your Black Templar because **** yeah you want to be a master swordsman with a huge sword, but one can't help but feel cheated out when what you want to do has no mechanical incentives to it, however minor they might be.

This is Min/Maxing. Figuring out what can do the most damage from whats available and always going with that. Same thing tabletop players do. Same thing that most true role-players frown upon, because when you do this you aren't playing a role. You are playing statistics. Role-playing is coming up with a preference for your character (and/or his chapter or group's preference), who will then prefer to use that preference. Your space marine knows he's strong he doesn't know his strength number though. He knows a powerfist and thunderhammer both do a lot of damage, he doesn't know the thunderhammer does exactly 5 more damage.

But if you think its alrighty to play math instead of play roles, well I can't stop you. I'm just suggesting doing it the other way may be more fun and entertaining. You've had your rebuttle to my response to your question. This is my rebuttle to yours, our debate is closed. Think about what I said or close your mind and don't. Either way, any responses to me will be wasted, I'm done with this topic.



#9 Nephilm

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 03:52 AM

 No, no, no... you're missing my point. What I'm calling for is that weapons ought to be different. Have their niche. For instance, power swords are great all rounders and defensive weapons, lightning claws are good for very skilled melee specialists, relic blades are swords that eat other swords... that kind of thing. They have their own mechanics, benefits and drawbacks, gimmicks.

What I'm seeing here is that the power fist and the thunder hammer fill the same kind of role, in roughly the same kind of manner, yet one is just plain better than the other, no drawbacks in terms of cost or availability or anything really. And I'm thinking this exactly because I'm factoring in the roleplaying - if my current Blood Angel Assault Marine has no strong feelings about either, then he would obviously go for the thunder hammer because he knows it has a concussive effect, and is equally easy to use and requisition. It's not about damage, but what they bring to the table.

If I were doing a Salamander I'd take the hammer no questions asked. If I were doing a Crimson Fist I'd take the power fist. If I were doing my Black Templar I'd go with swords until I could be entrusted with a Relic Blade. But in a situation in which I'm neutral about things, I'm left wondering what reason for existing on has over the other.



#10 Soloman

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:16 AM

Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?



#11 Brand

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:54 AM

Soloman said:

Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?

Most people that I've seen talk about the TH agree that it should be 2-handed, at the least, but by the book it only requires 1 hand.  It even explicitly suggests using the TH with a Storm Shield, which is an extremely deadly combination.  The only 2-hander, off the top of my head, is the Force Staff.



#12 Defenstrator

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 05:27 AM

Soloman said:

Is a thunder Hammer a 2 Handed weapon? Most of the models when equiped with one seem to use it with 2 hands. I ask because then the powerfist is better if you want another hand free maybe?

It should be. Certainly if you play DOW then it's a two handed weapon. Terminators carry it one handed, but those are Terminators. Officially at the moment though you can carry it one handed in regular power armour. If it ever becomes an issue I suspect our group will house rule Terminator Armour only for the one hand.



#13 Stormast

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 10:02 AM

Which sounds about right.

In a group, I was the GM, and we ruled that TH had to be 2-handed, except if your armor could handle it especially (you could pay it with a special Elite advance, Termie Armor, or whatever-I-felt-was-right).



#14 Siranui

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:03 AM

Nephilm said:

So, uh... thoughts?

 

Errr... yeah. I think you're doing the same thing twice, aren't you? You don't get extra strength damage because you do what the table says *and* what the text says. Firstly, multipliers add rather than multiply. So doubling Str bonus just adds one to the unnatural strength modifier, giving you Marine a multiplier of three with the weapon. 

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Likewise, it's best to house-rule the powerfist's powerfield. As it's unwieldy it can't parry, so the powerfield is useless. Instead, consider giving it a special quality whereby anything that *parries* it has a 25% of getting broken by its powerfield.



#15 Siranui

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:04 AM

 

Nephilm said:

So, uh... thoughts?

 

Errr... yeah. I think you're doing the same thing twice, aren't you? You don't get extra strength damage because you do what the table says *and* what the text says. Firstly, multipliers add rather than multiply. So doubling Str bonus just adds one to the unnatural strength modifier, giving you Marine a multiplier of three with the weapon. 

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Likewise, it's best to house-rule the powerfist's powerfield. As it's unwieldy it can't parry, so the powerfield is useless. Instead, consider giving it a special quality whereby anything that *parries* it has a 25% of getting broken by its powerfield.



#16 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:03 AM

Siranui said:

Yes: This makes them worse than Thunderhammers. As others have said: Any GM worth their dicebag will insist that Thunderhammers be used in two hands when not in terminator armour, because that's in line with canon. Though the Thunderhammer is still indeed broken, and you might want to house-rule nerf it.

Bear in mind that the Thunder Hammer has always been better than a power fist - back in 2nd edition, the Thunder Hammer auto-wounded everything it it, and auto-penetrated any vehicle (though it could only be used by models in Terminator Armour, as the shockwave of impact would knock over anyone in less sturdy armour), while from 3rd edition onwards, it's been a Power Fist with an additional special rule to represent the shockwave it produces.

The Thunder Hammer is traditionally superior to the Power Fist. I don't see anything wrong with that continuing to be the case.


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#17 Siranui

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:26 AM

 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

CLANG! Master-quality enemy? No problem. I'll just keep hitting it so it can't do anything and lays on the floor stunned while you all just stab it some more.



#18 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:47 AM

Siranui said:

 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

Siranui said:

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.


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#19 Nephilm

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:52 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Siranui said:

 

 I see nothing in that being a problem so long as the thunder-hammer is used in the conventional manner (two hands in power amrour, one with termie suits) rather than the one stated in the rules, and so long as it's not game-breaking. Sadly, the rules both allow use of it by a marine in scout armour in one hand, and are really broken.

 

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

Siranui said:

The TH can knock literally anything on its ass with no save (because I've not seen many things with a SB of over 30!) and invariably stun-locks everything, too. With multiple attacks the stun becomes a statistical near-certainty.

 

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

Making the TH two-handed when not in terminator armour seems like a good compromise, and maybe modifying the stunlock knocking down rules a bit.

The talent you're thinking of is Iron Jaw, btw.



#20 Siranui

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Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:33 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The "conventional manner" isn't so conventional as you might think. The Thunder Hammer isn't specifically a two-handed weapon for non-Terminators in the wargame either, unlike the Relic Blade.

The stun effect isn't that hard to get round, actually - any creature with Fate Points (such as, well, pretty much all Master enemies, post-errata) can spend one to overcome stunning, while the talent True Grit allows a simple Toughness Test to ignore being Stunned. A Daemon Prince actually can't be stunned at all, due to The Stuff of Nightmares. None of these things stop them being knocked down, but they make the Stun effect less significant on Master-level enemies.

Surely we don't need to argue semantics, given how utterly crazy it is compared to the power-fist (which has the same points cost) and even the chainfist (which is a pure termie weapon AND costs more Req!)? The TH is OP as RAW for its Req. That much is obvious.

The Stun effect isn't always great against masters, but is pretty much an 'I win' against everything else. And the knockdown is just ridiculous, given that it's automatic, with no consideration for size or anything else bar having a strength bonus that's all but unobtainable. It's a SECOND 'I win' against mobility-based foes using hit-and-run, and a nice bonus against everything else, on top of having great damage. In short -per RAW- it's really a no-brainer choice. That's bad for the game.






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