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#1 Serazu

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:30 PM

Good day to all of you,

Just a few days ago I laid my hands on this rich game and I 'm in the process of familiarizing myself with the rules. There are certain things that elude me though. Ay help would be much appreciated...

1.  The rules state that cards which modify income do so even when knelt. Does the same happen with cards which provide inluence?

2. Can cards with "Any phase: ..." , "Response: ..." etc. printed on their text with no reference to kneeling whatsoever, use these abilities when knelt? If Captain Groleo, for instance, is knelt, can he use his response when the prerequisite triggers?

3. In the case of cards such as those mentioned just above, do they use their ability only once per phase (or round) or as many times as possibly allowed? For instance, may I use a single card of Poisoned Wine as many times as I wish in a phase (or round), provided I have sufficient influence to spend?

4. In the case of Maester Aemon, I 've noticed that people consider him a fine asset in defending. From what I see, he cannot defend at all, lacking icons, and even if he could, he has to kneel to defend, so, being already knelt, cannot use his ability. Unless what they mean is that, having MA, use another character to defend against a military challenge, then, if you lose, pick MA to kill, then kneel him to counter the loss. Is that it?

5.  Ambush cards can be played at any phase by spending influence. Theoretically speaking, let's say that I decide to play such a card during Marshalling and pay with influence (yeah, not a good idea, but, like I said, we 're speaking theoretically). May cards such as Street of Sisters (provided the ambush card has a corresponding icon imprinted) or Summer Sea be used to reduce the cost in influence?

Thanks.



#2 Saturnine

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 10:49 PM

Serazu said:

Good day to all of you,

Just a few days ago I laid my hands on this rich game and I 'm in the process of familiarizing myself with the rules. There are certain things that elude me though. Ay help would be much appreciated...

1.  The rules state that cards which modify income do so even when knelt. Does the same happen with cards which provide inluence?

2. Can cards with "Any phase: ..." , "Response: ..." etc. printed on their text with no reference to kneeling whatsoever, use these abilities when knelt? If Captain Groleo, for instance, is knelt, can he use his response when the prerequisite triggers?

3. In the case of cards such as those mentioned just above, do they use their ability only once per phase (or round) or as many times as possibly allowed? For instance, may I use a single card of Poisoned Wine as many times as I wish in a phase (or round), provided I have sufficient influence to spend?

4. In the case of Maester Aemon, I 've noticed that people consider him a fine asset in defending. From what I see, he cannot defend at all, lacking icons, and even if he could, he has to kneel to defend, so, being already knelt, cannot use his ability. Unless what they mean is that, having MA, use another character to defend against a military challenge, then, if you lose, pick MA to kill, then kneel him to counter the loss. Is that it?

5.  Ambush cards can be played at any phase by spending influence. Theoretically speaking, let's say that I decide to play such a card during Marshalling and pay with influence (yeah, not a good idea, but, like I said, we 're speaking theoretically). May cards such as Street of Sisters (provided the ambush card has a corresponding icon imprinted) or Summer Sea be used to reduce the cost in influence?

Thanks.

 

1. No. Influence is not modifying anything. It is a resource that can be spent. Cards will ask you to kneel X influence. An influence providing card can obviously not be used that way when it is already kneeling.

2. Yes.

3. Unless limited by card text, there is no limit.

4. I think his ability to soak up claim is what people are refering to.

5. The rules state you may kneel the influence to pay the cards printed gold cost, so the reducers cannot be applied.

 



#3 Serazu

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:02 PM

Thanks for your time, but wait:

Saturnine said:

 

5. The rules state you may kneel the influence to pay the cards printed gold cost, so the reducers cannot be applied.

 

 

Let's take the Dragon Thief as an example. His printed gold cost is 2. If I decided to play him as a normal card with gold and discarded Summer Sea, then I would play him for no cost. Right? Now, if I decided to pay influence to use him as an ambush card at Marshalling, then I would have to pay 2 influence, right? What's keeping me from using Summer Sea to play him for no cost at all? After all, I 'm under the impression that "cost" is not only the gold cost, but the influence cost too, unless I am mistaken. Of course, it would make no proactical difference in the example, since the bottom line is that the DT is played for no cost, but we 're talking pretty theoretically here.



#4 Saturnine

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:07 PM

A card with the Ambush keyword does not have an influence cost. The keyword allows you to kneel an amount of influence equal to the printed (gold) cost to put the card into play as a standard player action. It's very straightforward.



#5 Serazu

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:17 PM

Saturnine said:

A card with the Ambush keyword does not have an influence cost. The keyword allows you to kneel an amount of influence equal to the printed (gold) cost to put the card into play as a standard player action. It's very straightforward.

Ok, so, from what I understand, the basis of your argument is that, paying with influence, you do not pay a cost, so cost-reducers cannot be played. Right? If this it, then it makes sense.



#6 Saturnine

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:27 PM

Kneeling influence could be considered the cost of the effect, but it's certainly not the cost of the card. You are not "playing" the card when making use of Ambush, you are putting it into play, bypassing all play restrictions and reducers.



#7 Serazu

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:31 PM

Thank you for clearing that up.

Now that you mention the "put into play" effect, another question. Since "putting into play" bypasses costs and restrictions, whenever I put into play cards such as Khal Drogo and the Titan's Bastard, I do not pay any gold, right?



#8 Rogue30

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:46 AM

Serazu said:

Since "putting into play" bypasses costs and restrictions, whenever I put into play cards such as Khal Drogo and the Titan's Bastard, I do not pay any gold, right?

Correct. Note that you "play" cards only by marshalling them for gold (or if you play events). Otherwise, you are "putting cards into play". That means, you cannot use reducers in your example, because they require "next card you play". You need specific cards like True-Queen's Harbinger to reduce ambush.

As for point 3, it's worth to mention that you can play actions without limit (if you can pay for them of course), but there is "once per trigger rule" wich applies to responses (and passive effects). So for example you cannot trigger Qyburn's Informers twice after you won intrigue challenge with them. But if you have two copies of Qyburn's Informers in play and you won with them both participating, you can trigger both responses to draw more, because each card is treated as a separate entity. That's why you are able to trigger both Khal Drogo cards, if you happen to have two of them in hand. The same with events - you are allowed to steal 2 locations by playing 2 x Support of the Kingdom if you won just one challenge.



#9 Serazu

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:49 AM

Normally, I cannot play two Khal Drogos if I happen to have two of them in hand, because KD is a unique card and I cannot have two of them in play simultaneously, from what the rules say. I guess I can do that in the case you mention because cards that are "put into play" bypass restrictions. Right?

I suppose the same happens with cards such as The Titan's Bastard; whenever a card is put into my dead pile and I happen to have two in hand, I can put both of them into play. Right?

The same doesn't happen with Limited Responses, though. If I control 3 Flaming-Pitch Towers and I win a challenge by 4 or more total Str, then I cannot utilize the effect of all three cards, but only the response of one. The other 2 cards will stay dormant. Right?



#10 Rogue30

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 07:13 AM

Serazu said:

I guess I can do that in the case you mention because cards that are "put into play" bypass restrictions. Right?

Unique rules step in after you put second Khal Drogo into play and he immediately becomes duplicate. You can never control the same 2 unique cards in play. I gave you example about Khal Drogo, because you normally cannot put into play duplicate except during marshalling phase.

 

Serazu said:

The same doesn't happen with Limited Responses, though. If I control 3 Flaming-Pitch Towers and I win a challenge by 4 or more total Str, then I cannot utilize the effect of all three cards, but only the response of one. The other 2 cards will stay dormant. Right?

Correct, because limited responses have their own rule.



#11 Serazu

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 08:40 AM

Rogue30 said:

Serazu said:

I guess I can do that in the case you mention because cards that are "put into play" bypass restrictions. Right?

 

Unique rules step in after you put second Khal Drogo into play and he immediately becomes duplicate. You can never control the same 2 unique cards in play. I gave you example about Khal Drogo, because you normally cannot put into play duplicate except during marshalling phase.

 

What happens then at the end of the phase when I have to return the character Khal Drogo to my hand? Will the duplicate return as well or will it be discarded?



#12 Bolzano

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:46 AM

It will be discarded



#13 Rogue30

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:05 PM

Serazu said:

What happens then at the end of the phase when I have to return the character Khal Drogo to my hand?

Note that usually you can save a card from leaving play by discarding duplicate, but "at the end of the phase" rules forbid you to trigger any effects, that's why Drogo returns to hand and all his duplicates are discarded.



#14 Saturnine

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 04:45 PM

Rogue30 said:

Serazu said:

What happens then at the end of the phase when I have to return the character Khal Drogo to my hand?

 

Note that usually you can save a card from leaving play by discarding duplicate, but "at the end of the phase" rules forbid you to trigger any effects, that's why Drogo returns to hand and all his duplicates are discarded.

 

Note that this only applies when you put Drogo as well as his duplicate into play using his ability. If you simply played Drogo in the marshalling phase, and then put the dupe into play using his ability, the cards stay in play as they are.



#15 ktom

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 06:17 PM

Serazu said:

Normally, I cannot play two Khal Drogos if I happen to have two of them in hand, because KD is a unique card and I cannot have two of them in play simultaneously, from what the rules say. I guess I can do that in the case you mention because cards that are "put into play" bypass restrictions. Right?

I suppose the same happens with cards such as The Titan's Bastard; whenever a card is put into my dead pile and I happen to have two in hand, I can put both of them into play. Right?

The same doesn't happen with Limited Responses, though. If I control 3 Flaming-Pitch Towers and I win a challenge by 4 or more total Str, then I cannot utilize the effect of all three cards, but only the response of one. The other 2 cards will stay dormant. Right?

You seem to be making too broad of a statement with these, btw.

The "put into play" mechanic does not bypass all restrictions. It doesn't bypass the rules of unique, timing, "House X only," or, really, any other general rule or play restriction. The only restrictions "put into play" bypasses are the "cards can only be played by paying their gold cost during your turn as active player in Marshaling." Unless the "put into play" effect specifically contradicts a rule or play restriction, it does not and you still have to live by it.



#16 Serazu

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:42 PM

Concerning the Queen of Dragons set, the text in the Hatchlings cards states that whenever the "mature" corresponding version of the Dragon takes its part in the game, the Hatchling turns into its duplicate. If the Hatchling has assimilated power on it (i.e. by being the Black or the White one and having taken part in challenges alongside Rhaegal), what happens to those tokens? Are they transferred to the new version or are they lost?



#17 Saturnine

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:44 PM

They are discarded.



#18 Bolzano

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 12:12 AM

I don't see why they would be discarded since the character just attach itself as a duplicate. The card do not leave play.

 

However, power tokens on a Duplicate do not count for your victory total, so they are pretty useless.



#19 ktom

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 12:58 AM

Bolzano said:

I don't see why they would be discarded since the character just attach itself as a duplicate. The card do not leave play.

However, power tokens on a Duplicate do not count for your victory total, so they are pretty useless.

This is, indeed, the technical process. The power stays on the dupe since the card did not leave play. It is not transferred to the "big" dragon, but it does not count toward victory (only power on characters and House count toward victory - unless otherwise specified).

The power doesn't leave play until the dupe is discarded, but it is effectively useless (ie, may as well be discarded) when the Hatchling stops being a character.



#20 Saturnine

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 01:11 AM

Huh. Wouldn't have thunk it, but I suppose I was wrong. It just seemed absurd to me that a duplicate would have power on it, but then again - as you pointed out - there's no rule or effect that would discard it.






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