Jump to content



Photo

power gamers delight


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#21 Drace

Drace

    Member

  • Members
  • 38 posts

Posted 12 April 2011 - 04:14 PM

 I'm pretty sure that in any and every one of the books in the FFG line and in nearly every RPG out there, they say that the GM/DM/Guy running the game is in charge and gets final say in what is allowed. So if anything it is the GM that allows the power gaming, and the players that cause the problem.

If the GM doesnt want power gaming, tell the players that they will be approving everything and stopping it.

There is no such thing as a truly broken game, unless the game is just horribly made and crap.  Otherwise it is up to the players and GM to keep the game at the power level they want it at, which isn't that hard.



#22 Chastity

Chastity

    Member

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:33 AM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Blech... I've long since moved away from tailoring combats to PC ability. If the group decided to attack an orphanage, then they'll find children and the staff who take care of and teach them (of course, in 40k, that may actually be a tougher fight than it might initially sound); if they try to attack an Arbites Precinct-Fortress, they'll encounter servitor-slaved defensive systems and well-equipped, well-trained Arbitrators; if they try to venture into the impossible brass-and-bone fortress of a Daemon Prince of Khorne, then they'll encounter that Daemon Prince and his servants.

I think you're talking about a slightly different issue here.

So the players decide to attack the brass-and-bone fortress of a Daemon Prince of Khorne, and they find that Demon Prince and his servants. How do you choose the stats for the Demon Prince? Or his servants for that matter? Presumably at some point you have to work out how powerful you want him to be *relative to the players* and go from there.

Otherwise you might find that the players get massacred in the orphanage (because you forgot how underpowered low-level PCs are and found that a WS25 orphan with an improvised weapon was far nastier than it looked on paper) or completely roflstomp the Daemon Prince (because you hadn't realized how effective a full-auto Heavy Bolter burst could be).

Obviously you shouldn't artificially power-up everything in the game universe to be the same level as the PCs but you should absolutely take PC capabilities into account when you design NPCs, because otherwise you actually break verisimilitude.



#23 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,761 posts

Posted 15 April 2011 - 05:43 AM

Chastity said:

So the players decide to attack the brass-and-bone fortress of a Daemon Prince of Khorne, and they find that Demon Prince and his servants. How do you choose the stats for the Demon Prince? Or his servants for that matter? Presumably at some point you have to work out how powerful you want him to be *relative to the players* and go from there.

 

Otherwise you might find that the players get massacred in the orphanage (because you forgot how underpowered low-level PCs are and found that a WS25 orphan with an improvised weapon was far nastier than it looked on paper) or completely roflstomp the Daemon Prince (because you hadn't realized how effective a full-auto Heavy Bolter burst could be).

Well, he has a point there. Official stats are available, and the only reason for why they would have to be tweaked "should" (personal opinion) be their relation towards each other, not to the ever-changing stats of the player characters. Similarly, in case no official stats are available, whatever you come up with should somehow relate to the "next best thing".

If the player characters get massacred by WS25 orphans with improvised weapons, they did something wrong and deserved it. Likewise, when you think the heavy bolter is too powerful, it should be nerfed in general and not just for one opponent.

Else you end up with a weird world where enemies, regardless of type and equipment, scale with the players' level. I've grown to seriously dislike this in a lot of computer games, and do not ever want to see it in a P&P one. It just makes everything look less consistent and reduces the players' decisions to numbercrunch instead of forcing them to try to analyze and foresee what might await them wherever they go, basing their tactics and decisions on common sense, experience and knowledge instead of expecting the same kind of challenge everywhere.

All of that is just my personal opinion and preference, of course.


current 40k RPG character: Aura Vashaan, Astromancer Witch-Priestess
previous characters: Captain Elias (Celestial Lions Chapter), Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader Artemisia)

#24 N0-1_H3r3

N0-1_H3r3

    Former Contributing Freelance Writer

  • Members
  • 3,306 posts

Posted 15 April 2011 - 08:35 AM

Chastity said:

I think you're talking about a slightly different issue here.

But one with significant overlap.

Unknown said:

So the players decide to attack the brass-and-bone fortress of a Daemon Prince of Khorne, and they find that Demon Prince and his servants. How do you choose the stats for the Demon Prince? Or his servants for that matter? Presumably at some point you have to work out how powerful you want him to be *relative to the players* and go from there.

No, I don't. A Carnifex is a Carnifex is a Carnifex, written without regard for the specific details of my group at the time (though noting that I've frequently taken to changing Tyranid creature stats between games to represent the Hive Mind evolving new strains of existing creatures). I've been writing NPC stats for a long time, and I've never written them with the intention of balancing them against the player characters' capabilities - the world doesn't revolve around them, and such a narrow focus of design would make them far less useful outside of the specific context of their creation. Whether I want to stat up a Bloodthirster of Khorne or an Eldar Corsair, I will give it whatever skills, talents, traits and unique special rules I deem appropriate based on my understanding of the setting and the relative potency of other NPCs, regardless of what my players' characters are capable of overcoming that week.


Writing Credits for Fantasy Flight Games: Into the Storm, Edge of the Abyss, Battlefleet Koronus, Hostile Acquisitions, Black Crusade Core Rulebook, First Founding, The Jericho Reach, The Soul Reaver, Only War, The Navis Primer and Ark of Lost Souls


#25 Chastity

Chastity

    Member

  • Members
  • 181 posts

Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:11 PM

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I've been writing NPC stats for a long time, and I've never written them with the intention of balancing them against the player characters' capabilities - the world doesn't revolve around them, and such a narrow focus of design would make them far less useful outside of the specific context of their creation.

I suspect that this is where we differ, as far as I'm concerned the world *absolutely* revolves around the PCs - it doesn't make any sense to me to care whether the stats of NPCs are consistent with each other because I never intend those NPCs to get into fights with each other. Basically the way I see it the game mechanics are quite a flawed way of representing the world - particularly the leveling system, and all that bothers me is whether things feel plausible in the instant the players encounter them.

Genestealers are a good example. To my mind the correct, *canon appropriate* way to run genestealers is for them to present a significant but not insurmountable threat for pretty much any level of character - from Dark Heresy acolytes with mono-blades and lasguns (perfectly acceptable in tabletop - Genstealers are T4 creatures) to DeathWatch Marines in Terminator armour (perfectly acceptable in Space Hulk - Genestealers slaughter Terminators in close combat). This basically isn't possible with one set of stats - a genestealer that can threaten a high-level Deathwatch marine will slaughter a Dark Heresy acolyte.

 



#26 Joe_momma

Joe_momma

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts

Posted 16 April 2011 - 01:23 AM

Power gamers exploit systems, any game is potentially a power gamers delight. Warhammer 40k in general I believe is a big draw to power gamers by it's very nature.

Power gamers also buy books, which helps to keep books being published. ROLEplayers buy books, which helps to keep books being published. We are in a symbiotic relationship.


Nex ut reproba emperetor!


#27 Drachdhar

Drachdhar

    Member

  • Members
  • 152 posts

Posted 22 April 2011 - 11:59 AM

MILLANDSON said:

Cifer said:

 

 If the group decided to attack an orphanage, then they'll find children and the staff who take care of and teach them (of course, in 40k, that may actually be a tougher fight than it might initially sound)

Well, choose the wrong orphanage and you might have to deal with Commissars, Sororitas, Arbitrators and Stormtroopers - though probably only a few of them.

 

 

Hell, chose the wrong orphanage on the wrong planet, and you might end up against Commissars, Sororitas, Arbitrators and Stormtroopers... who are being led by Commissar Ciaphas Cain... which then makes you more boned

Or they attack a Blighted Schola and suddenly discover that their guts are being munched on by summoned daemonic pets:D

 

 

As to the other matter of power scaling. a Genestealer is not very threatening to a high lvl Deathwatch marine for the same reason Asdrubael Vect would find them non-threatening. Experience is the word, one Genestealer shouldnt be a challenge to a Deathwatch marine with 40k xp, said marine would probably still find a Deamon Prince to be a challenge and on the other hand annihilate lots and lots of Genestealers. (Unless said marine was an idjit and let himself be surrounded with genestealers, cause that is just not a good idea)

Take it in DnD 3.5 jargong... IF every orc suddenly is lvl 8 when the players hit lvl 10, what makes the players feel like they are lvl 10? The truth is that most orcs would still be around lvl 1 NPC class or lvl 1 PC class when the players hit lvl 10 and the players in turn will steamroll the orcs.

 

Like what was said, it's all about plausability. Players that are not total idiots ought to know what they are capable of, especially if they've played for awhile, so said players should know that attacking that carnifex just because its in their way maybe is not the best idea after all. Porblems can be solved in different ways, and if you tailor every encounter to the PCs it stops being challenging because they never have to think. So I think I find it more important to provide a consistent world where the players can expect to know what an ork can do, most of the time. [rambling on]






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS