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An Argument for Chaos


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#61 Lord Ork

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 11:04 PM

Yeah. That was my point.



#62 Siranui

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:40 AM

Lord Ork said:

Is it?

Are dictators on the side of their people?

Yes. The Imperium isn't for the betterment of humanity, or for the happiness of humanity: It's for the survival of humanity. It always acts in a pro-human manner and in no way cares for anyone or anything outside of the Imperium. All the Imperium seeks is the continuance of itself and humanity as a species.

Dictators have children and seek to carve their name into history. Both require that their race survive. Whereas Chaos doesn't really care two hoots about humanity in the long run.



#63 Lord Ork

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:23 PM

Yeah. Dictators need their people to stay in power, also. That's the trick: convince people they need you so they don't realize you need them.

That's exactly how the empire operates. The god emperor saves you. The god emperor prevents you from destruction. The god emperor fights against human enemies so you can survive. In reality, it's the opposite: you fight and die so the Imperium can survive. Imperium doesn't save you: you save the Imperium.

I insist: chaos is not nice. It's evil. You must be crazy to turn to chaos. Or desperate.

But a miserable world as the imperium is, it's full of desperates. Vast majority of them don't know what the chaos really is. They know what the Imperium tells them. But, seriously, would you trust a government that continuously tells you that to think and doubt is wrong?



#64 Blood Pact

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:49 PM

I didn't realize that it was the Imperium that the Orks, Eldar, and everything else, had a problem with.

So all humanity needs to do to be safe from all these various xenos races is to shrug off the yoke of the Emperor?

(actually, that sounds like a good motivation for a chatacter. Only the Chaos Gods can save us from <insert alien menace>!)



#65 Cifer

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:12 PM

I didn't realize that it was the Imperium that the Orks, Eldar, and everything else, had a problem with.

The Eldar probably would leave humanity mostly alone if the Imperium wasn't around to constantly meddle in affairs that must not be meddled with by anyone insufficiently pointy-eared - they can't spare the manpower for anything less than relevant to their own interests.

 

However, to return to the present topic, the question is not "Is the Imperium interested in humanity's survival?", but "Does serving and continuing the Imperium ensure the best chance of humanity's survival compared to, for example, turning to Chaos and providing humanity with far stronger champions that could supplant the dead Emperor, with enough of them not going bat-**** insane too soon?"



#66 Andor

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:41 PM

Siranui said:

Lord Ork said:

 

Yes. The Imperium isn't for the betterment of humanity, or for the happiness of humanity: It's for the survival of humanity. It always acts in a pro-human manner and in no way cares for anyone or anything outside of the Imperium. All the Imperium seeks is the continuance of itself and humanity as a species.

Not quite true. The imperium takes great delight in conquering any other human worlds it finds and forcibly drafting them into the imperium. In fact there have been damn few planets since Mars that willing joined the Imperium and the Imperium now contains millions of worlds. The emperor was pretty much an asshat before he became an insane, soul eating, undead glowbug, things haven't improved since then. If the imperium ever found another human empire that could match them in strength they'd probably go to war in a heart beat. Heh ... Can you imagine if the Imperium made contact with the Federation from StarTrek? "Kill the Xenos loving, godless heretics!" They'd like Kirk better than Picard of course.



#67 Andor

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:48 PM

You know... that could make a great character concept. Someone who lived on some isolated, idyllic world of peace and prosperity, which was brutally and without warning invaded and conquered by the Imperium. Their leaders killed, their cities smashed and their people now impoverished by the fearsome tithes the Imperium demands. And your character watched it all happen, saw the cities burn while the guardsmen pillaged and raped and the Space Marines laughed and slaughtered anyone who dared to ask why. He watched his brothers rounded up to be drafted into the Guard so they could bring terror and death to the next innocent paradise unfortunate enough to be found by the Imperium. So now he's turned to Chaos hoping that through them he can gain the power to rip the Imperium apart so that no one else every has to go through that again.



#68 Kael

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 02:27 PM

Andor said:

You know... that could make a great character concept. Someone who lived on some isolated, idyllic world of peace and prosperity, which was brutally and without warning invaded and conquered by the Imperium. Their leaders killed, their cities smashed and their people now impoverished by the fearsome tithes the Imperium demands. And your character watched it all happen, saw the cities burn while the guardsmen pillaged and raped and the Space Marines laughed and slaughtered anyone who dared to ask why. He watched his brothers rounded up to be drafted into the Guard so they could bring terror and death to the next innocent paradise unfortunate enough to be found by the Imperium. So now he's turned to Chaos hoping that through them he can gain the power to rip the Imperium apart so that no one else every has to go through that again.

 

Not a  bad idea. 



#69 Blood Pact

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:29 PM

Cifer said:

 

I didn't realize that it was the Imperium that the Orks, Eldar, and everything else, had a problem with.

The Eldar probably would leave humanity mostly alone if the Imperium wasn't around to constantly meddle in affairs that must not be meddled with by anyone insufficiently pointy-eared - they can't spare the manpower for anything less than relevant to their own interests.

 

However, to return to the present topic, the question is not "Is the Imperium interested in humanity's survival?", but "Does serving and continuing the Imperium ensure the best chance of humanity's survival compared to, for example, turning to Chaos and providing humanity with far stronger champions that could supplant the dead Emperor, with enough of them not going bat-**** insane too soon?"

 

 

No, not really. Eldrad Ulthuan steered Warboss Thraka in to Armageddon and the Imperial history books, killing billions of humans and laying waste to most of a world because a few hundred Eldar might have died otherwise.

If some humans were to accidently settle on a Maiden World, without knowing what it was, the Eldar are very likely to take offence, and show up demanding they leave... and give them some piddling and altogether insufficient amount of time to evacuate the entire planet before they attack. Or if they're the Biel Tan, they don't even give that much, and just show up and start killing every human they can find.

And then there's the Dark Eldar, 'nuff said about them.

So no, much like the Tau, the Eldar are a bunch of pricks who don't really care for humanity at all.

As for Chaos, while I look forward to the opportunity to play a follower of the Ruinous Powers, I have absolutely no illusions to how benevolent they are, or that turning all of humanity toward their worship would be good for us in the long run. That way only madness lies. It's not like the Chaos Gods were ever forces of good, that somehow got corrupted by some mysterious Warp Herpes that was floating around. They've always been maleavolent primordial forces that exist and think in ways that are many orders of magnitude beyond humanity.



#70 Blood Pact

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:00 PM

Once he's fully in the thrall of Chaos, he really needs to go and despoil some wonderful little paradise world himself though. And then fend off the Imperium when it 'invades' and attempts to save everyone.



#71 Lord Ork

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:35 PM

Blood Pact said:

I didn't realize that it was the Imperium that the Orks, Eldar, and everything else, had a problem with.

So all humanity needs to do to be safe from all these various xenos races is to shrug off the yoke of the Emperor?

(actually, that sounds like a good motivation for a chatacter. Only the Chaos Gods can save us from <insert alien menace>!)

Ah, the external enemy. A classic in the dictator sourcebook... Maybe this time there is real danger, but I fail to see how having out space horrors justifies burning every poor person that happens to not love the emperor enough. Or attacking every citizen who thinks that reasoning is a good activity.

Also, as pointed by other posters, many human worlds lost in the imperium do exist. And they have survived so far out of God Emperor's reach. Also as pointed, many times the enemy that awaits them are not vicious aliens, or chaotic sorcerers, but the imperium coming to the planet and imposing their fanatical religion.



#72 Lord Ork

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 08:57 PM

Andor said:

You know... that could make a great character concept. Someone who lived on some isolated, idyllic world of peace and prosperity, which was brutally and without warning invaded and conquered by the Imperium. Their leaders killed, their cities smashed and their people now impoverished by the fearsome tithes the Imperium demands. And your character watched it all happen, saw the cities burn while the guardsmen pillaged and raped and the Space Marines laughed and slaughtered anyone who dared to ask why. He watched his brothers rounded up to be drafted into the Guard so they could bring terror and death to the next innocent paradise unfortunate enough to be found by the Imperium. So now he's turned to Chaos hoping that through them he can gain the power to rip the Imperium apart so that no one else every has to go through that again.

Cool.

Recently I designed a character based on a similar concept. Kajor was a world recently discovered by the Imperium of man, few centuries ago. There were still a few cults devoted to an old religion of life adoration and celebration. The character is a girl among the very few that escaped from the inquistion purges following the cult discover. They declare that the old religion (nothing more than the usual superstition) consists of Chaos adoration and all the cultists are burnt as worshippers of the Ruinous Powers, as they are forced to declare their culpability. Soon, the luminous Kajor is painted with the dark oppresion of the empire.

So, this girl grows thinking that Chaos is the beautiful deities their friends worshipped, and hopes to find the opportunity to contact them and strike the imperium in the way. Also, the harsh experiences and drug abuse have made her a bit deranged before any chaos interaction.



#73 El Cid

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 05:26 PM

To all upstanding Imperial Citizens :

Please explain the necessity of the genocidal methods used in welcoming the lost fragments of humanity ( those unwilling to submit ) to the False Imperium . While at it please explain why the lost humanity needed to submit to the Imperial rule in the first place ( after all it did survive and thrived without it for many millenia ).

Please explain the shift in the Imperial policies concerning the existence of Gods ( and spirits etc etc ) after the Great Crusade . Please explain the part of the False Emperor in this .

Please explain the existence of the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition and their role in the False Imperium of Man .

 

 

The False Imperium of Man , needs Man as its slave and will stop at nothing to achieve it . The truth is there for all to see . Just open your eyes to it .

Horus , the only humanitarian , failed and as the proverbial tragic hero sought to destroy what he failed to protect .

We need only finish what was left unfinished .

We , the enlightened .

 

 

 

Yes , we are trembling with anticipation for this new RPG .

It's time someone set things straight .

Yay .

 

 






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