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An Argument for Chaos


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#41 Cifer

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:26 AM

  Are there really any moderates amongst the followers of Khorne? Or even Slaanesh and Nurgle?

According to Shades of Grey: Of course there are. The battlefield champion (rather than the butcher) would be one for Khorne, while a gifted surgeon might be a follower of Nurgle and a great painter of Slaanesh.



#42 Mjoellnir

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 12:38 AM

Cifer said:

  Are there really any moderates amongst the followers of Khorne? Or even Slaanesh and Nurgle?

According to Shades of Grey: Of course there are. The battlefield champion (rather than the butcher) would be one for Khorne, while a gifted surgeon might be a follower of Nurgle and a great painter of Slaanesh.

But can you stay moderate? In the one Horus Heresy novel I have (I think Fulgrim) a few artists are "infected" on the planet of a Slaanesh-worshipping Xenos race. And the musician becomes completely unhappy with everything until he invents new musical instruments (which become the first noise marine weapons) and writes music that summons daemonettes.



#43 Cifer

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 03:05 AM

 But can you stay moderate?

Probably not any better than a DH character can stay sane and uncorrupted. But then again, what story in the 40k verse ends well in the long run?



#44 Drace

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 05:04 AM

Mjoellnir said:

Cifer said:

 

  Are there really any moderates amongst the followers of Khorne? Or even Slaanesh and Nurgle?

According to Shades of Grey: Of course there are. The battlefield champion (rather than the butcher) would be one for Khorne, while a gifted surgeon might be a follower of Nurgle and a great painter of Slaanesh.

 

 

But can you stay moderate? In the one Horus Heresy novel I have (I think Fulgrim) a few artists are "infected" on the planet of a Slaanesh-worshipping Xenos race. And the musician becomes completely unhappy with everything until he invents new musical instruments (which become the first noise marine weapons) and writes music that summons daemonettes.

 

Those were the extremes when you read the book, the woman who invented them was a full blown slanneesh cultist (even if she didn't know it) who had gone down the extreme path.  A better example would be the woman that was the painter.  Slowly she gets more and more corrupt, over the course of a few years I think, and works her way up from a obsession with perfecting her art to using bodily fluids and other things as material, to hurting herself to killing someone to use.  Until the end she is a moderate slaneesh cultist, even if it all started due to a demonic musk.

For Khorne, any khornate general or leader is more of a moderate than the average Khorne marine.  Most of what we know of Chaos and the gods direct followers are through the chaos marines. So of course we attribute Khorne to things that the former world eaters would do, not even looking at other examples of Khorne cults and followers in WH and 40k.  A serial killer who fights his urges, a vigilante that enjoys the thrill of battle, a soldier defending his family or home are all possible moderates.



#45 Blood Pact

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 05:47 AM

Considering the types of aliens in the universe, and how utterly hostile like 99.99% of them are, I don't think the Emperor's stance is all that extreme.

Consider the Laer, how Fulgrim was being a xenophobic jerk when he decided they needed to be exterminated... oh, they had temples to Slaanesh. Yeah, like they would have ever been safe to include in to the Imperium.

Or the Tau, who are also a brutal facist empire too, they just have good PR. Don't tow the party line? Well they have reeducation centres, forced sterilization facilities, or just plain ol' making you disapeer in the middle of the night. Tau fanboys must hate how Deathwatch has dirtied up reputation of the little blue gits, by making them just as mean and nasty as everyone else in the 40K universe.

And there's the Eldar, who you can sympathise with over their slow slide toward extinction. But then there's that whole "genocide against humanity" thing some of them are hooked on, or just a general opinion that billions of human lives are worth a few hundred Eldar when it comes to balancing their longterm plans.



#46 Mjoellnir

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:08 AM

Cifer said:

Probably not any better than a DH character can stay sane and uncorrupted. But then again, what story in the 40k verse ends well in the long run?

Well, humanity and the Eldar are still alive in a half-way unmutated and sane state even though they were dealt horrible blows 10,000 years ago. We don't know how it will end. And unless they are radical DH characters at least try to destroy chaos, not worship it while telling themselves that they are going to stay moderate.

Drace said:

Those were the extremes when you read the book, the woman who invented them was a full blown slanneesh cultist (even if she didn't know it) who had gone down the extreme path. A better example would be the woman that was the painter. Slowly she gets more and more corrupt, over the course of a few years I think, and works her way up from a obsession with perfecting her art to using bodily fluids and other things as material, to hurting herself to killing someone to use. Until the end she is a moderate slaneesh cultist, even if it all started due to a demonic musk.

I don't remember the book too well (it kind of frustrated me, I had expected the Imperials to be smarter in the past without the Ecclesiarchy and all that crap that comes with it. I was wrong.) However a painter killing someone to use his bodily fluids as paint isn't moderate.

Drace said:

For Khorne, any khornate general or leader is more of a moderate than the average Khorne marine. Most of what we know of Chaos and the gods direct followers are through the chaos marines. So of course we attribute Khorne to things that the former world eaters would do, not even looking at other examples of Khorne cults and followers in WH and 40k. A serial killer who fights his urges, a vigilante that enjoys the thrill of battle, a soldier defending his family or home are all possible moderates.

We know of the chaos marines and the daemons. The only other Khorne cultists that come to mind for me is the Blood Pact. Okay those are not mindless berserkers but they still spill lots of "blood for the blood god!" Something a serial killer who would fight his urges or a soldier defending his home wouldn't.

Blood Pact said:

Considering the types of aliens in the universe, and how utterly hostile like 99.99% of them are, I don't think the Emperor's stance is all that extreme.

Consider the Laer, how Fulgrim was being a xenophobic jerk when he decided they needed to be exterminated... oh, they had temples to Slaanesh. Yeah, like they would have ever been safe to include in to the Imperium.

Yeah, that was a good deed through bad motivation. But think of the Diasporex. They never did anything to harm the Imperium, they weren't chaos worshipers... Just an alliance of humans with diverse alien species.

Blood Pact said:

Or the Tau, who are also a brutal facist empire too, they just have good PR. Don't tow the party line? Well they have reeducation centres, forced sterilization facilities, or just plain ol' making you disapeer in the middle of the night. Tau fanboys must hate how Deathwatch has dirtied up reputation of the little blue gits, by making them just as mean and nasty as everyone else in the 40K universe.

I never liked the Tau and I never will. But that's hardly a reason for genocide.

Blood Pact said:

And there's the Eldar, who you can sympathise with over their slow slide toward extinction. But then there's that whole "genocide against humanity" thing some of them are hooked on, or just a general opinion that billions of human lives are worth a few hundred Eldar when it comes to balancing their longterm plans.

Yeah, unfortunately Eldar have a very similar amount of morons as humanity. It seems some of the bad blood comes from the meeting of Eldrath and Fulgrim, another big part was probably the Emperor ignoring the warning about Horus. That makes it kind of understandable that they see humans as expendable morons. It's pretty much the same way the High Lords and the Inquisition see them. Still, Eldar and Imperium are the peoples most likely to ally when it is necessary.



#47 cobrausn

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:10 AM

Blood Pact said:

And there's the Eldar, who you can sympathise with over their slow slide toward extinction. But then there's that whole "genocide against humanity" thing some of them are hooked on, or just a general opinion that billions of human lives are worth a few hundred Eldar when it comes to balancing their longterm plans.

Considering the Imperium will ocasionally sacrifice a few million just to kill a few thousand aliens, I don't find the Eldar stance all that extreme.  I tend to sympathize with them (post-Slaanesh) more than anybody else in the 40k universe.



#48 Drace

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 07:16 AM

Mjoellnir said:


 

I don't remember the book too well (it kind of frustrated me, I had expected the Imperials to be smarter in the past without the Ecclesiarchy and all that crap that comes with it. I was wrong.) However a painter killing someone to use his bodily fluids as paint isn't moderate.

 

With her I was showing how she was for the most part a moderate until she killed the guy to use as paint/material



#49 MILLANDSON

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 09:32 AM

Drace said:

As for the whole Imperium creating the chaos gods, since it hasn't been Retconned since the early days, it looks like first three chaos gods started to gain their seperate existences (fields of influence) during the human middle ages.  Slanneesh was millenia later.  But the warp was tainted like was earlier mentioned by the war between the C'tan/Necrontyr and the Eldergods/Old ones/Eldar et al.

I was under the impression that it had been changed so that Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne had existed before the human races, and had begun to emerge during/just after the War of the Heavens.


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#50 Drace

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 10:15 AM

 I thought it was that the warp became unstable and inhospitable/hostile during the war of the heavens, and the 3 first greater gods didn't get full sentiency until around m2 or the late middle ages?

But then again, you could be right and it could be changed. I still forget Orks are now spores sometimes.



#51 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:16 PM

MILLANDSON said:

Drace said:

 

As for the whole Imperium creating the chaos gods, since it hasn't been Retconned since the early days, it looks like first three chaos gods started to gain their seperate existences (fields of influence) during the human middle ages.  Slanneesh was millenia later.  But the warp was tainted like was earlier mentioned by the war between the C'tan/Necrontyr and the Eldergods/Old ones/Eldar et al.

 

I was under the impression that it had been changed so that Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne had existed before the human races, and had begun to emerge during/just after the War of the Heavens.

I personally tend to regard the creation of Chaos (at the end of the War in Heaven) and the individual manifestation of the Chaos Gods in their current form (in the millennia after the Emperor's birth - IIRC, starting c.7,000BCE with Khorne) as distinct events, though the distinction between them is muddled due to the nonlinear and impermanent nature of the Warp. Essentially, the millions of years (from the material perspective) between the end of the War in Heaven and the 'birth' of the Chaos Gods allows for countless different Chaos Gods now long-dead and half-remembered, to have existed, and Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch may well have suffered the same fate, but for the events of the Horus Heresy and the power it brought them.


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#52 Mjoellnir

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 05:29 AM

Drace said:

With her I was showing how she was for the most part a moderate until she killed the guy to use as paint/material

Yeah, "until". That's kind of my point. The chaos gods will push you farther and farther. Regardless where you start, why and how much you don't want to go on, you either die or you reach the stage where you are an evil killer. That may come for some sooner and for others later, but it's the same result. In my humble opinion the only way to remain a honorable battlefield champion of Khorne is to die early, before you like flowing blood so much that the heartbeat of your allies is a provocation to you.



#53 Drace

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 05:56 PM

Mjoellnir said:

Drace said:

 

With her I was showing how she was for the most part a moderate until she killed the guy to use as paint/material

 

 

Yeah, "until". That's kind of my point. The chaos gods will push you farther and farther. Regardless where you start, why and how much you don't want to go on, you either die or you reach the stage where you are an evil killer. That may come for some sooner and for others later, but it's the same result. In my humble opinion the only way to remain a honorable battlefield champion of Khorne is to die early, before you like flowing blood so much that the heartbeat of your allies is a provocation to you.

Since when is that a bad thing though? Any blood is good for Khorne, and he isn't too picky about the skulls I hear either.  

Then again, you have to wonder at how many of those that have gone to the point you are talking about care? Or how many have had their minds twisted by the forces of chaos that they still somehow see themselves as righteous. Look at the demagogue who sees the corruption of the Imperium and uses chaos to liberate the "idiot masses' from their forced idleness. By the time he is a chaos champion he could have twisted the liberating of imperial citizens to meaning he has to kill them all for them to all be truly free of the imperium.

I'm not saying he, or any chaos champion is good. They just may not see themselves as the evil scum they inevitable are.



#54 Mjoellnir

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 07:06 AM

Drace said:

 

 

Since when is that a bad thing though? Any blood is good for Khorne, and he isn't too picky about the skulls I hear either.  

Then again, you have to wonder at how many of those that have gone to the point you are talking about care? Or how many have had their minds twisted by the forces of chaos that they still somehow see themselves as righteous. Look at the demagogue who sees the corruption of the Imperium and uses chaos to liberate the "idiot masses' from their forced idleness. By the time he is a chaos champion he could have twisted the liberating of imperial citizens to meaning he has to kill them all for them to all be truly free of the imperium.

I'm not saying he, or any chaos champion is good. They just may not see themselves as the evil scum they inevitable are.

Yes, they probably won't. Justifying things to yourself is easy (just look at the Imperium) especially if you are also twisted by Chaos. However it's not that easy to get good recruits that way if you land on a planet. "Hello, we are the good guys, we are here to free you from the oppression of the false Emperor and his lackeys. Now we need 1000 virgins as a sacrifice to summon a demon horde, our Berzerkers will go crazy if they don't get to kill something soon, and the Imperial forces are still two days away, do you have an orphanage where they could distract themselves? Oh, and the Noise Marines called dibs on everyone they like who's not a virgin for a nice pre-battle orgy. By the way you should start building temples to Nurgle, the plague marines are already spreading diseases and if you appease him you will maybe survive as some kind of festering abomination that will be useful in the coming fight.



#55 Drace

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 08:18 AM

 See thats why you sent your demagogues and cultists to spread the word of chaos prior to your arrival.  That way, when you do arrive, and give that speech, they will great you with cheers.

Foreplanning is the chaos lords friend.  Sure you can easily justify your actions to yourself, but being the true 'good' chaos guy is meaning you can do it to others



#56 The Laughing God

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:16 AM

Sergeant Brother said:

The Chaos gods are the true gods of mankind. It is the very nature of humanity which gives the Chaos gods their form. It is the courage, tenacity, ferocity and fighting prowess of humanity which empowers Khorne. It is mortal passion, our love of pleasure and desire for perfection which empowers Slaanesh. It is human intellect, curiosity, and drive to lear and explore which empowers Tzeentch. And it is our mortality itself, the briefness and hardship of each human life and the struggle against our inevitable demise which powers Nurgle. All of what is unique about humanity, all that makes us special, is personified in the gods of Chaos.

Excellent write up. I think it's the dark side of the above that creates Chaos. I don't think Chaos itself is eventually beneficial to mankind ... remember the mutation, the war-spawned horrors, the corruption, the madness :)


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#57 Lord Ork

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 11:22 PM

Have you never feel while playing Dark Heresy that you are bad guys?

You know, that thing of better killing a thousand of innocents than let a dangerous heretic to live. How much evil is that?

Vast majority of the imperium citizens are not slaves, but they are serfs. Feudal serfs, which is sometimes worse than being a slave. The reason is the path to heresy. You must stay your place or otherwise you are heretic and must be killed. Die for the emperor or die as an heretic.

I am not saying that chaos is nice. It isn't. But I understand why so many people turn to it. Many would feel that is better to destroy such a cruel and harsh Universe than being comdemned to live in it.

I remember reading the RPG Paranoia. In it, all people contrary to the distopian regime were executed as communist. Many people didn't know what communist were, but they wanted to be communists just because if the computer said it was evil, it must be good.

In the same way, if you realize how much evil the empire is, you could think that its enemy must be good.



#58 Siranui

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:04 AM

 The Imperium is pretty evil, but at least it's on the side of humanity!



#59 Lord Ork

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:43 AM

Is it?

Are dictators on the side of their people?

Or maybe they use and abuse people in their benefit?



#60 Blood Pact

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 04:56 AM

You mean kinda like how the Chaos Gods do?






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