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An Argument for Chaos


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#21 Mjoellnir

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 07:51 AM

MILLANDSON said:


They have their free will (ish), but they are not free. They still have to conform to a totalitarian, theocratic dictatorship, and should they step out of line by an inch, they are dead for treason or heresy.

Yep, it's really sad for 40k that they are still one of the nicest factions around. :D

MILLANDSON said:

In many cases, people who follow Chaos are free, because they do not have that oppression. A large portion of Chaos followers (likely the majority) don't follow any particular god, and are not the slaves you would make them out to be.

People in the Imperium are no more "free" than any Chaos follower, but at least a follower of Chaos can make his own way in the world, choosing his own path, rather than being in a state, as many Imperial citizens are, of being a near-endentured worker.

Maybe they don't have that special kind of oppression. They have the rule of the strongest. Look at the possible goals of Black Crusade.

"Games set within the anarchic Screaming Vortex are all about power. The player characters seek to gain dominance over their rivals, earning as they do so the dark blessings of the Ruinous Powers."

Yes, you can choose your own path. If you are powerful. Otherwise? Well, if someone wants to wear your skin as a cloak on an Imperial world he will be hunted down (with a bit of delay depending on your importance). On a chaos world? Wearing skin becomes fashionable, as long as the people you skin can't defend themselves. And people who stay between all four chaos powers not being as crazy as the ones who focus on one, well that doesn't really speak for Chaos, does it? And I don't think that more loyal Space Marines turn traitor then traitor marines leaving Chaos has to do with Nurgle's awesome dental plan.

MILLANDSON said:

Of course though, almost all the fluff previously released is from a pro-Imperial/anti-Chaos perspective, which just reinforces the belief that Chaos is, and always will be, evil.

It's not as if Chaos-worshippers would be nice to each other. The other traitor legions turned on the Sons of Horus to get Horus' body etc. It's that way from a pure chaos view point (Codex Chaos Space Marines, Chaos fluff from BFG etc).

MILLANDSON said:

I also note that you justify what the Imperium does (re: Emperor eating souls, etc). Why can't Chaos make the same justification? If they do, they are no more evil than anyone else.

The difference is that for the Imperium the ends justify the means. For Chaos the ends are the means. The Emperor eats souls to stay "alive" and keep the Astronomicon running (even though I have no idea how the Imperium navigated while he still wandered around.) Chaos eats souls because they are tasty and nourishing. The Imperium destroys worlds to deny Chaos access to human souls, Tyranids to biomass etc. mostly after other, more conventional, defenses have failed. Chaos destroys planets because it's an easy and effective way to kill large groups of opponents. Don't get me wrong. I hate the Imperium. I wouldn't shed a tear if someone would blow up Sol in the 40k universe. But it's still the lesser of two evils.

Lynata said:

In short: Name one non-evil Chaos God or Daemon and we can talk. ;)

That's an interesting an funny question, because I have been wondering for a long time.... What the hell were the Eldar gods? Avatars of Khaine count as demons for rule purposes. In the Codex chaos demons there is seemingly a story that Isha survived Slaanesh's birth, was taken prisoner and later "freed" by Nurgle and now is caged next to his plague cauldron and whispers the cures for the plagues into the warp. Now you could argue that Khaine is evil, and that he's not a full god anymore but did he ever mutate Eldar? And as what would an Avatar of Isha count? Is demon just a label for beings from the warp like what works against "witches" works against all psykers? Questions over questions.



#22 Bilateralrope

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 09:35 AM

The Imperium is by no means nice. In fact they actively destroyed human societies that were better than them. However at the moment it is the only thing that keeps Chaos in check. (Even though that it is that strong is 100% their fault.)

 

Which Chaos Gods did The Imperium give birth to ?

Didn't the Imperium only come about because the Eldar collapsed the previous civilisation when their screwing around caused warp storms across the galaxy ?

Didn't those warp storms only end when the Eldar exploded their civilisation and created Slaanesh ?

 

How can anyone other than the Eldar take the majority of the blame for chaos ?



#23 Black_Kestrel

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 09:51 AM

Bilateralrope said:

 

The Imperium is by no means nice. In fact they actively destroyed human societies that were better than them. However at the moment it is the only thing that keeps Chaos in check. (Even though that it is that strong is 100% their fault.)

 Which Chaos Gods did The Imperium give birth to ?

Didn't the Imperium only come about because the Eldar collapsed the previous civilisation when their screwing around caused warp storms across the galaxy ?

Didn't those warp storms only end when the Eldar exploded their civilisation and created Slaanesh ?

 How can anyone other than the Eldar take the majority of the blame for chaos ?

 

 

The C'taan via the Necrontyr can with the Slaan sharing the blame as well. It comes down to the law of unintended consequences. Prior to the galaxy spanning war between the Slaan and the Necrontyr the Warp was relatively benign. The Slaan engineered a multitude of races to aid them in their war against the Necrontyr. It was the fear, pain, loss and other negative emotions generated from the proxy races of the Slaan during the war that changed the fundamental nature of the Warp. So you can blame the Slaan, Necrontyr and C'taan for the state of the Warp as it stands today along with the coalescense of Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch.



#24 Mjoellnir

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:19 AM

Bilateralrope said:

The Imperium is by no means nice. In fact they actively destroyed human societies that were better than them. However at the moment it is the only thing that keeps Chaos in check. (Even though that it is that strong is 100% their fault.)

 

Which Chaos Gods did The Imperium give birth to ?

Didn't the Imperium only come about because the Eldar collapsed the previous civilisation when their screwing around caused warp storms across the galaxy ?

Didn't those warp storms only end when the Eldar exploded their civilisation and created Slaanesh ?

 

How can anyone other than the Eldar take the majority of the blame for chaos ?

The Eldar are only responsible for Slaanesh as far as I remember. The Imperium however is guilty of the creation of I think 9 chaos space marine legions and a bunch of traitor chapters. And I know that I would prefer fighting Chaos Guard to Chaos Space Marines.....



#25 MILLANDSON

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 10:31 AM

Mjoellnir said:

 

The Eldar are only responsible for Slaanesh as far as I remember. The Imperium however is guilty of the creation of I think 9 chaos space marine legions and a bunch of traitor chapters. And I know that I would prefer fighting Chaos Guard to Chaos Space Marines.....

However, if it wasn't for the Eldar creating Slaanesh, the Eye of Terror wouldn't have been formed, and the warp storms that plagued the galaxy, and prevented mankind from spreading and uniting into the plague that is now the Imperium, wouldn't have been blown out, which would have meant that humanity wouldn't have been able to become powerful enough for there to have been a Horus Heresy.

If it wasn't for the Eldar, none of that would have happened.


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#26 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 12:23 PM

Bilateralrope said:

How can anyone other than the Eldar take the majority of the blame for chaos ?

 

The Eldar gave birth to a single Chaos God, yes (though, given the timeless nature of the Warp, Slaanesh could technically be regarded as having already existed before then, and may well have contributed to its own birth)...

...but Mankind gave the Chaos Gods an army, and one unlike anything that had existed before, legions of warriors totally one half of the armed forces of a civilisation that had conquered well over a million worlds in only two hundred and fifty years, led by superhuman beings whose individual might eclipses all but the most powerful of Greater Daemons.

The Horus Heresy is very much an ascendancy for Chaos, to the point where it has the means to directly influence the material universe through countless trillions of worshippers and warriors.


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#27 Mjoellnir

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Posted 03 April 2011 - 06:48 PM

MILLANDSON said:

 

 

However, if it wasn't for the Eldar creating Slaanesh, the Eye of Terror wouldn't have been formed, and the warp storms that plagued the galaxy, and prevented mankind from spreading and uniting into the plague that is now the Imperium, wouldn't have been blown out, which would have meant that humanity wouldn't have been able to become powerful enough for there to have been a Horus Heresy.

If it wasn't for the Eldar, none of that would have happened.

Now that's a bit like blaming a European butterfly for a storm in China. The Eldar never thought "Hey, let's create a new chaos god whose birth will accidentally change the warp in a way that will allow an insignificant race of monkeys to reunite with their old colonies and take over the Galaxy."

It was the Emperor who thought: "Hm, I need warriors with inhuman strength and toughness, in fact they would be perfect demonhosts so I better don't tell them demons exist, otherwise they could get strange ideas. Also I will never take any advice from a psyker regardless if it's my own son or some xenos, because I rule! Nobody can disobey me."



#28 Siranui

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 02:13 AM

Before portraying Chaos deities as a benign force in the galaxy, I think it's fair to ask 'what are their long-term goals'.

K: Endless war and blood spilled in his name.

T: Change and the eventual opening of primordial Chaos into the material world.

S: I really don't want to think about this one too much.

N: Disease, rot and decay.

 



#29 Cifer

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 04:01 AM

 I believe there's a fundamental point in this discussion that hasn't been properly acknowledged. Namely, what exactly are we comparing? The Imperium vs Chaos, The Imperium vs Chaos Deity X or The Imperium vs Chaos Warband Y? Because that's where I believe the differences in opinion come from: Some posters are comparing an organization with what must either be called a force of nature or an eldritch abomination. I believe noone is saying that Khorne is "better" than the IoM - Khorne is the primordial force of rage, honour and slaughter. An universe dominated entirely by him would mean that the barrier between the warp and reality drops and the warp engulfs all which is kind of a bad thing for humanity.

The interesting question is about those who draw their power from Khorne and their organizations, but in that case you're comparing countless individuals and one monolithic organization. Among these individuals, there are both those who are idealistic and want to make their little part of the universe a better place and those who are either completely consumed by their patron deity or were tyrannic arseholes to begin with. 



#30 vastrix

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 05:43 AM

 There are those who turned to Chaos thinking that they would be helping the Imperium (or at least the Galaxy at large).

The Alpha Legion originally turned at the request of the Cabal in order for Horus to win and eventually turn on himself and drag the Chaos Gods down with him. Now it goes without saying that Horus did not win and we're looking at the prophesy where the Chaos Gods win all after about ten thousand years or so. So...if the reason they turned to Chaos in the first place is null and void, why do they still fight for Chaos? Well actually that's not really known.

The Thousand Sons had been trying to be loyal though they didn't know their destiny had been manipulated ever since the discovery of Magnus the Red and his deal to end the Flesh Change. At the end of the Thousand Sons novel, Ahriman had vowed that he would prove the loyalty of the Thousand Sons once and forever to be on the side of humanity and the Empreror. Now of course, he and they have been a bit side-tracked since then.

The Night Lords joined Chaos because of their actions in choosing to make Fear be the reason why those of the Imperium remain loyal. They were told it was wrong...now that they are sided with Chaos? That's pretty much what the Imperium stance on things seems to be.

The Black Legion even thought they were doing humanity a favor when they were the Sons of Horus, at least at first. The Chaos Gods lied to Horus and led him to think that the Empreror had left the Great Crusade in order to go home and become a God. Then he would be able to cast away all of his sons for he would no longer need him. Now Horus was shown the truth of what the 40k universe would become as a result of this civil war, but not that it would be he who caused it all to happen.

Other Chapters if I recall joined Chaos because they took a stance contrary to what the local people in charge thought was right and were declared criminals for it. The Soul Drinkers in particular had a bad strain of gene-seed and began mutating. They were not of Chaos, but were seen to be that way because of discrimination against mutants. In some cases, stand against an Inquisitor who wishes to destroy a planet and you may find your entire Chapter has to flee to the Eye of Terror or similar places to avoid being hunted. 

As the Horus Heresy novels unfold, it reveals that many of the servants of Chaos simply fell into it because of different tragedies mounting with a lack of communication. How many Space Marine Legions would have remained Loyalist if their Primarchs and their father had a communicative relationship? All he had to do was say "My sons, I'm placing Horus in charge as Warmaster. I'm going to Earth to create a new method of space travel that will take the Imperium to the entire galaxy."

In some cases it's the sons who should have spoke. What if Perturabo was able to go to his father and say "Father, my Legion grow weary of simply being a Garrison Legion. My heart hurts to split my Legion apart so. Is there another way we can do things?"

I think I digress a little bit, but for some who serve Chaos it is a means to simple power. Black and white villains. For others, it is a quest of their own. A knowledgement that what they do is right and will help all of humanity. For some, it is all that they feel remains to them for if the Imperium sees them as monsters then monsters they must be.

 



#31 MILLANDSON

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:08 AM

vastrix said:

The Alpha Legion originally turned at the request of the Cabal in order for Horus to win and eventually turn on himself and drag the Chaos Gods down with him. Now it goes without saying that Horus did not win and we're looking at the prophesy where the Chaos Gods win all after about ten thousand years or so. So...if the reason they turned to Chaos in the first place is null and void, why do they still fight for Chaos? Well actually that's not really known.

I thought it was fairly obvious why they're still fighting for Chaos, given the fluff (including their warcry "For The Emperor!") we've seen. They're still trying to complete their duty to the Emperor and their promise to the Cabal, in that they are trying to get Chaos to win, so that it may snuff itself out, resulting in Chaos ultimately being defeated.


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

Posts/views/opinions are in no way representative of FFG, and are entirely my own.


#32 Lightbringer

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:31 AM

MILLANDSON said:

 

 

I thought it was fairly obvious why they're still fighting for Chaos, given the fluff (including their warcry "For The Emperor!") we've seen. They're still trying to complete their duty to the Emperor and their promise to the Cabal, in that they are trying to get Chaos to win, so that it may snuff itself out, resulting in Chaos ultimately being defeated.

 

 

I think it's a little more debatable than that. The cabal showed Alpharius a vision of two alternative futures of the Heresy's outcome:

(1)  The Emperor is defeated, in a decade or so the Imperium collapses into chaos and creates a vast warp vortex that wipes chaos itself out. And humanity, of course.

(2) The Emperor wins but is crippled and drags out the death of humanity for 10,000 years, leaving chaos ascendant and triumphant forever. 

It must be pretty clear to the Alpha Legion by now that the chance of option (1) happening has now completely passed, and that they are living in the worst of all possible futures. So why carry on fighting for chaos?

Perhaps they've genuinely given in to despair, and simply go through the motions, knowing they're doomed. Perhaps they've now genuinely fallen to chaos.  



#33 MILLANDSON

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:42 AM

I always just got the opinion that they decided, since they couldn't go back, they would continue to try to get the Imperium to collapse and allow Chaos to burn itself out, hence why they promote Chaos cults across the Imperium, and try to stir up instability.


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#34 Lightbringer

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:49 AM

That's a reasonable assumption. But the vision the Cabal gave to Alpharius doesn't (as I recall) suggest that possible future 2 provided any hope of Chaos burning itself out...just that it would eventually destroy humanity. I could be wrong, though, as I haven't read the book in a while!  



#35 MILLANDSON

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:50 AM

To be fair, their vision only showed a snapshot of what the Imperium would be like immediately following the Heresy, rather than what would occur for all time, and I can't imagine Alpherius giving up on his duty to the Emperor just because of a xenos vision. Personally, he seemed the type who'd continue in his duty through the patented subversive and guerilla techniques of the Alpha Legion.


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#36 N0-1_H3r3

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:13 AM

I don't personally feel that any one thing can be said of the Alpha Legion any more - assuming a fractured organisation akin to that of most of the Traitor Legions, individual officers and/or warlords are now running the show for disparate warbands all over the place, each working to their own objectives (and permitted by what remains of the Legion's old heirarchy, as it obfuscates their real objectives). This can be easily demonstrated by the existence of the likes of Kernax Voldorius (a Daemon Prince of Alpha Legion origin... nothing says "I work for Chaos" like daemonhood). I can easily see the events in Legion as resulting in a schism within the Alpha Legion, with Alpharius literally being of two minds about the whole thing.

The matter is still confusing; while the Alpha Legion are noted for using "For the Emperor" as an ironic battlecry, there are apparent exceptions to that: the Alpha Legion commander in the second scenario in The Emperor Protects says "For the Emperor" amongst his dying words as he passes on some necessary exposition to the Player Characters, while the short story excerpt Black Library posted to their Facebook page last friday had Alpharius salute the other Traitor Primarchs with the 'aquila' gesture.


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#37 Siranui

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:24 AM

MILLANDSON said:

vastrix said:

 

The Alpha Legion originally turned at the request of the Cabal in order for Horus to win and eventually turn on himself and drag the Chaos Gods down with him. Now it goes without saying that Horus did not win and we're looking at the prophesy where the Chaos Gods win all after about ten thousand years or so. So...if the reason they turned to Chaos in the first place is null and void, why do they still fight for Chaos? Well actually that's not really known.

 

I thought it was fairly obvious why they're still fighting for Chaos, given the fluff (including their warcry "For The Emperor!") we've seen. They're still trying to complete their duty to the Emperor and their promise to the Cabal, in that they are trying to get Chaos to win, so that it may snuff itself out, resulting in Chaos ultimately being defeated.

And it appears that -along with so many other stories of the Imperium- stubborn stupidity is behind things. When Horus failed, the Cabal were proved wrong, and the entire reason for the Alpha Legion turning traitor proved to be incorrect. But instead of saying 'Hey: We've been had! If we really care about the Imperium, we should seek to rejoin it.' they carried on.

Many factions fell to chaos by intent or accident or by basic stupidity, but then -when the mistake became clear- carried on treading the same path. And in some cases the fall itself was the product of such absurd logic that you can't help think that such idiots frankly deserve to be chaos spawn!

It seems that a completely blinkered approach to politics and a blindness to reality haven't evolved out of our psyche anywhere in 40,000 years. For me, I struggle to identify with many of the chaos factions and legions because they acted in such a stupid and arrogant way that my sympathy for them dried up completely.

 

 



#38 Sebashaw

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:04 AM

I agree with Siranui: I'm the EmperRor, I want help Mortarion people, but not Angron people, because I'm the EmperRor, and I'm stupid.



#39 Drace

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:40 PM

 In the Horus Heresy series it show on multiple occasions how the Emperor isn't a just or caring person, but a violent, xenophobic tyrant who would gladly murder 80% of existence so that he could have his perfect empire.

Have any meetings or deals with aliens? No, kill them all. See if they are possibly benign or friendly? Of course not, they don't look like us so they are evil and lesser. (the lesser part is mentioned in several since they don't have human form. The Emperor's children novel, Fulgrim I think, spends alot of time focusing on this fact.)

Even other cultures of Humans are disgusted by the Empire and can't understand the Emperor's plan.  In truth he embodies most of the facets of the Chaos gods.  He has Khorne's bloodthristy and violent nature (rather than create perfect leaders, peacekeepers and the like he creates uber engines of destruction given flesh). Hehas the calculation and warp abilities attributed to Tzeench's followers. He has the physical perfection and near seductive ability to control others for Slaneesh, and the drive to create static (and therefor eventual rotting) that is attributed with early Nurgle.

As for the whole Imperium creating the chaos gods, since it hasn't been Retconned since the early days, it looks like first three chaos gods started to gain their seperate existences (fields of influence) during the human middle ages.  Slanneesh was millenia later.  But the warp was tainted like was earlier mentioned by the war between the C'tan/Necrontyr and the Eldergods/Old ones/Eldar et al.

As for the emperor becoming a Chaos god, as of Realm of Chaos back in the day, he is. He is becoming the star child or Star god as he is slowly worshipped and one day will be powerful enough to do the same as other chaos gods. The eldar have a similiar diety coming to life within their infinity circuits and the exodite circuits somehow.

In my mind, Chaos is only evil because of their excesses in their natures, just like the Imperium is evil for its excesses on the polar opposite side. Both sides have their moderates, but the extremes are what get the most attention and are best known IMO.



#40 Siranui

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:07 PM

 Are there really any moderates amongst the followers of Khorne? Or even Slaanesh and Nurgle?






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