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Misfortune. What rerolling really means


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#1 Rimmer

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:10 AM

Misfortune (Spell): Cast on any character who is about to roll a die. That die automatically rolls a "1" result and cannot be rerolled.

What rerolling actually means?

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

Again. No rolling.

Or does "cannot be rerolled" mean just that you can't change the result in any way?

I think Misfortune is an overpowered spell so I personally wish I can do all these things to defend.



#2 The_Warlock

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 02:17 AM

Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

Rimmer said:

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

I'm afraid this is not allowed, since you need to spend Fate to cast Twist of Fate. If you spend Fate you're actually starting a re-roll process and I think this is what Misfortune is meant to prevent (no matter if you actually re-roll or not).

Rimmer said:


Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

I think this works perfectly. It changes the result of the die without actual re-rolling.

 

Misfortune is a gruesome Spell, but it's not overpowered. Such Spells are a great danger for leading Characters and can result in sudden death, which is rather impossible by normal means. When people will get used to the presence of such Spells, I think they will become extra careful in their lingering on the board while they're more than Crown-ready. I like Misfortune for this reason, finally there's a Spell that can put a strong Character in real danger. In the Inner Region, the Misfortune Spell cannot hurt you, except if combined with other Spells (Vindication, Random).

By the way, if you have Misfortune you can keep it and use it in the Mines or Crypt. In some cases a 1 result is a lucky one...it's also an interesting result for the Judgement day ending, if you have too many chances to lose with a normal roll.



#3 talismanamsilat

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 07:56 AM

The Misfortune Spell cannot be countered by using fate, a Lucky Charm, Marked for Glory or the Moon Charm. It can only be countered by a Counterspell or the Reflection Spell.

Ell.



#4 The_Warlock

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:11 AM

talismanamsilat said:

The Misfortune Spell cannot be countered by using fate, a Lucky Charm, Marked for Glory or the Moon Charm. It can only be countered by a Counterspell or the Reflection Spell.

Ell.

No way out then. It should have been written "and cannot be changed by any means".



#5 frogemoth

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:23 AM

I don't like this ruling, it makes the spell way too powerful. At least you should have some ways out of this spell, I wouldn't like to be forced to keep a Counterspell the whole game just in case someone cast Misfortune on me.



#6 talismanamsilat

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 08:07 AM

I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).
A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).
The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.



#7 Croonos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 04:33 AM

Cards like Misfortune and Marked for Glory can be used when character roll a die. What happened when I can (or must) throw some more dice?
1) Can I use it in case of modified dice roll (i.e. by Riding Horse) to change the score of one of the dice?
2) Can I use it only in situation where I must roll 2 or 3 dice (like Temple or Mine/Crypt) to change the score of one of the dice? The same as Monk can use its abbility in Temple where he roll 2 dice: "After rolling the die when praying, you may add 1 to the score."
3) Can I use it only after I pay a fate for one die to change it's roll and then add it to the score (no matter if it was modified or standard 2 or 3 dice roll)?



#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 10:56 AM

My opinion is that multiple dice rolls should be affected by such Spells just like they are affected by fate. Using Misfortune on your character in the Inner Region can be very useful sometimes. Of course, timing will be tricky if you cast them on another character and you can't pretend to see the result of one or two dice before deciding whether to cast the Spell or not.

 

Still there's a problem. Movement effects, on the contrary, do not to mix. The FAQ says you cannot use the Clockwork Owl if you choose to roll 2 dice with the Riding Horse or cast the Speed Spell; I suppose the reason behind the rule is that the Clockwork Owl says "up to your die roll" and if you roll 2 dice you fall outside that statement. By extension, you can't trigger the Magic Carpet, Troll regeneration, the Walking Stick/Gilded Compass, Amazon/Torch/Trailblazer effects, etc... but you may agree that it's very close to your original question.

 

I really hope that a FAQ will clarify such issues, they are as old as Talisman.



#9 Croonos

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:48 AM

My opinion is that multiple dice rolls should be affected by such Spells just like they are affected by fate. Using Misfortune on your character in the Inner Region can be very useful sometimes.

In accordance with current rules and FAQ it looks that this is the right way to play.
 

Natural vs. Modified Roll

If an effect or special ability refers to a die result, only the

number appearing on the die is considered, not the modified

result obtained by adding bonuses or subtracting penalties.

 

Interpreting this rule every natural roll (no matter if it is one die or multiple dice roll - as the Priest/Monk/Knight can modify 2 dice roll in Temple) can be modified. So I can use Misfortune or Marked For Glory in Temple or Mine/Crypt to change the result in one of several dice. Moreover a die roll can be modified many times as FAQ stated: "If a character has both the Haunt and Jester as Followers his attack rolls are reduced by 2 instead of 1." In this case character subtracts 2 different penalties from a die roll. The only restriction is that after modification you can not refer this result to benefit any effect or special ability.


Edited by Croonos, 14 February 2014 - 01:25 AM.


#10 Croonos

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 01:57 AM

If I choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling by using: Lucky Charm, Twist Of fate, Weighted Dice or even Misfortune (e.g. can I move Grim Reaper when I use Misfortune for my movement?) it is considered as a Natural or Modified Roll? In this case I am not adding any bonuses or subtracting penalties to a die roll but only choose it.



#11 Biergarden

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:23 AM

I agree with Warlock. It's my opinion that the Magic Lamp cold also change the Misfortune spell as well since there is no rolling of dice. The Genie of the lamp makes the change for you. 



#12 Nioreh

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 09:54 AM

I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).
A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).
The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.

 

 

Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

 

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then Twist of Fate (Spell)?

 

I'm afraid this is not allowed, since you need to spend Fate to cast Twist of Fate. If you spend Fate you're actually starting a re-roll process and I think this is what Misfortune is meant to prevent (no matter if you actually re-roll or not).

Rimmer said:


Can you use Moon Charm (Reward): Keep this card. You may discard this card after rolling a die to change the die result into a 6 result. ?

 

I think this works perfectly. It changes the result of the die without actual re-rolling.

 

Misfortune is a gruesome Spell, but it's not overpowered. Such Spells are a great danger for leading Characters and can result in sudden death, which is rather impossible by normal means. When people will get used to the presence of such Spells, I think they will become extra careful in their lingering on the board while they're more than Crown-ready. I like Misfortune for this reason, finally there's a Spell that can put a strong Character in real danger. In the Inner Region, the Misfortune Spell cannot hurt you, except if combined with other Spells (Vindication, Random).

By the way, if you have Misfortune you can keep it and use it in the Mines or Crypt. In some cases a 1 result is a lucky one...it's also an interesting result for the Judgement day ending, if you have too many chances to lose with a normal roll.

 

I don't think you are reading the Lucky Charm and The Marked for Glory cards properly.

"You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."
"Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll. After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll."

You have to be about to make a die roll to use these and for that you would need to use fate, which you're not allowed to.

The only things that work that I can think of atm are:

Moon Charm and Magic Lamp

ps. Im soo looking forward to dark fate :D



#13 Uvatha

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Posted 10 May 2014 - 07:35 PM

Goes back to the whole timing issue again like the Alciemcist and shops in the city. Players cant buy a magic item then turn it to gold then buy another one etc etc. They can only turn items to gold, buy items, turn items to gold.. You cannot interupt a game effect unless it says you can.

 

So Misfortune is casted before die roll, effect (if not countered) takes effect- die is considered to be rolled and its a "1" Effects that say "before a die roll" is made thus cannot be played. Effects that do not say "before a die roll" can...

 

The "Muiti-effects at same time rule" is only for effects that trigger at the same time.. eg "At the start of a players turn". When this happens the player who turn it is chooses what effect goes first.



#14 The_Warlock

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:11 AM

 

I'm really sorry guys I made a mistake with this question, having not read it properly. Upon further examination:

A Lucky Charm cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve changing the actual effect of Misfortune).
A Twist of Fate Spell cannot be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this would involve rerolling the die).

The Moon Charm can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve rerolling the die).
The Marked for Glory Spell can be used after Misfortune is cast on a character (this does not involve changing the result of the die roll).

Ell.

 

 

Your questions are all very interesting. I think there are some ways to defend from the Misfortune Spell, but I need to check them point-wise:

Rimmer said:

 

Can you use fate and then the Cloverfield to choose a new result? If you do this, you actually do not reroll the die. You actually do not roll it.

 

I don't think you need to use fate. Fate implies a chance of re-rolling, no matter if you use the Lucky Charm and decide which result you score.

I think you can use the Lucky Charm to cancel the effect of Misfortune and choose the result anyway, since you're not re-rolling the die. I think also the Marked for Glory Spell can work this way. For this it's better to ask for official confirmation.

I don't think you are reading the Lucky Charm and The Marked for Glory cards properly.

"You may discard the Charm when you are about to make a die roll. You choose which result on the die to use instead of rolling it."
"Cast on yourself when you are about to make a die roll. After rolling, you may add up to 6 to the result of the die roll."

You have to be about to make a die roll to use these and for that you would need to use fate, which you're not allowed to.

My intention was not to state something but to hint at a possible interpretation, which is different from yours. Uvatha makes a good point about the timing of Spells and by this interpretation it's probably right to rule out Marked for Glory and Lucky Charm. It's a sound way to

 

Misfortune, Lucky Charm and Marked for Glory are all used when you are "about to make a die roll". If someone casts Misfortune on you, you won't be making any roll (you won't do the action of rolling) but the die automatically rolls a 1 (so the roll is not cancelled, but gives a predetermined result).

 

My idea was the following: since the roll is not cancelled, you might still play an effect that influences the roll, provided it is not a re-rolling effect. Marked for Glory could be played to add up to 6 to the die roll (which will give a 1 result automatically) and the Lucky Charm could be discarded to choose the result instead of accepting the 1.

 

I think these could be acceptable interpretations just like "no before rolling effects could be played", but they require an official clarification to settle things. The key is understanding whether Misfortune makes the roll happen or determines its result only.

 

A reason why they could receive a different ruling is this: when you play effects the other way  around (first Marked for Glory/Lucky Charm, then Misfortune), they have different precedences. Probably with the Lucky Charm you cannot cast Misfortune, because the result is chosen instead of rolling, but with Marked for Glory you could still say it's a 1 and then the player adds up to 6. What disturbs me it's that you cannot do the same when playing Marked for Glory after Misfortune.


Edited by The_Warlock, 12 May 2014 - 12:14 AM.


#15 Uvatha

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 08:14 PM

I think it all goes down to a player trying to stop or counter Misfortunes effects, and lets face it its a very very nasty spell. But seriously if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

 

I think limiting Misfortune to only 1 in the deck (forget how many are in there with all the sets).

 

On another note I'm wondering if a player can cast Misfortune on a Reaper.Werewolf roll? I know a player is rolling the die but most players say you cannot fate a Reaper,Werewolf roll? Now thats confusing...



#16 DomaGB

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Posted 12 May 2014 - 09:18 PM

I think I removed Misfortune from my set, as its way too powerful and mean. My friend didn't and then I used it to show its power in a game the last time we played. I sent the Reaper on someone and cast Misfortune.

Everyone's eyes were opened. They now knew the power of that card and how I have info from being on this forum. I showed them this because of that power I removed it from my set, but they left it in and were impressed by its power rather than seeing it being too powerful.

RoboRally, then Talisman. That's the way it is... ;)


#17 The_Warlock

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:09 AM

I've stopped using the Reaper since Misfortune was added, because characters began to die a bit too often, at least one per game. In that sense, the Prowling Werewolf was a welcome addition, since it has no instant death on a 1 result.

However, the combo Vindication + Misfortune tends to come up quite regularly in our games, and it's a dastardly action that requires the coalition of 2 players against one other. Also Random + Misfortune is quite bad for the victim, especially because it can also be used in a 2-player game!



#18 DomaGB

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:51 AM

I'd rather lose Misfortune than the Reaper. The Reaper is more fun and Misfortune is just plain mean!


RoboRally, then Talisman. That's the way it is... ;)


#19 Nioreh

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 02:35 PM

...

My idea was the following: since the roll is not cancelled, you might still play an effect that influences the roll, provided it is not a re-rolling effect. Marked for Glory could be played to add up to 6 to the die roll (which will give a 1 result automatically) and the Lucky Charm could be discarded to choose the result instead of accepting the 1.

 

I think these could be acceptable interpretations just like "no before rolling effects could be played", but they require an official clarification to settle things. The key is understanding whether Misfortune makes the roll happen or determines its result only.

...

 

 

Oh, I understand how you're reasoning now.
However I still think that is stretching it a bit, it should have read "That die will automatically rolls a 1.." etc in that case. And as Uvatha said, if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

Also I would like to apologize for the incredibly annoying red text. I was merely trying to emphasize what I was making my remark on instead of quoting a really long comment but it turned out being nothing but hard to read and almost aggressive looking  :wacko:

Edited by Nioreh, 13 May 2014 - 02:36 PM.


#20 The_Warlock

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:49 PM

 

Oh, I understand how you're reasoning now.
However I still think that is stretching it a bit, it should have read "That die will automatically rolls a 1.." etc in that case. And as Uvatha said, if you were not going to use a "before a die roll" ability in the first place you should not be allowed to after Misfortunes effect.

Also I would like to apologize for the incredibly annoying red text. I was merely trying to emphasize what I was making my remark on instead of quoting a really long comment but it turned out being nothing but hard to read and almost aggressive looking  :wacko:

 

I think you guys made a good point about Misfortune and probably that's the correct way to handle it. The Spell settles the die result immediately when it is cast, and this will rule out all other "about to roll a die" effects. Even though this makes Misfortune really difficult to counter, it rules out most of the debates it can raise. Possibly another FAQ entry on this matter would be ok, but you're probably on the safer side with your interpretation.

 

No problems for the red text, at least from my side. It is a good idea. It's bit difficult to read, so I would take FFG layout as an example and use light blue text instead.


Edited by The_Warlock, 13 May 2014 - 11:50 PM.





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