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#41 Polaria

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 10:20 PM

In Dark Heresy one of the characters in my group has grown very fond of her Long las. Combined with high BS, Talents and Hotshot-shells it is doing pretty bad-ass damage. For marine sniping purposes the Sniper Rifle and the Stalker pattern both do their stuff. One is for ultra-stealthy soft-target elimination, other for more general purpose dedicated marksmanship job. If you need to positively kill every Tyranid in the room then you are better off with heavy weapons like Heavy Bolter or Missile Launcher anyway.

One thing I would change, though, is that Sniper Rifle is Exotic Weapon. I mean 90% of existing chapters have their young scouts use that weapon so how in earth doesn't a basic marine have the skills to use it? If you are building a starting character and want him to be a sniper of sorts, I would suggest Tactical Marine with standard Godwyn Pattern bolter. Give him some longer range bolts (Kraken rounds, if I remember correct) and targeting scope for the bolter and he will do his job just fine. Sniper Rifle is a special tool, for special jobs, not something a squad dedicated marksman would carry to battle. God knows US army dedicated marksmen sometimes do their job with simple M4 + scope (although they really shouldn't).

BTW, unlike Hollywood says "sniper rifle" is not a synonym of .50 BMG and "snipers" do much more than just extremely long-range shooting... In my youth in army I did qualify for sniper and later helped in training some more. The weapons used by the snipers varied, according to job at hand, from silenced .22 LR to 14,5 mm heavy machinegun. :)

 


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#42 Nimon

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Posted 26 November 2010 - 05:56 PM

Peacekeeper_b said:

Nimon said:

 

I don't see 0 pen going through the window of a sentinel walker piloted by a corrupted guardsmen but hey you go ahead and try it.

If I want a normal Sniper rifle I think I will stick to what I made. Its based off the Exitus Rifle from Ascension. 

 

 

Do you even read what you type?

Just a question.

Not trying to provoke anything, but in the 15 months on the Iran border did you often have to shoot sentinel walker pilots through windows? Do you really think the Exitus Rifle is a NORMAL sniper rifle?

And I am not seeing all this "AK is so wrong it hurts" areas you refer to. So far, everything he has said is in the rules and works just fine. Yes the bolters are only 50M shorter on range, normally. But at extreme, when you use the times four distance, they are 200M shorter on range. Whats more, a heavy bolter cannot take advantage of some of the other aspects the sniper can, such as the accurate bonus, or scopes and sites.

Besides, while the weapon is important, the sniper is the most important part of the equation. His BS, his talents, his skills.

All you need is a decent rifle, Eye of Vengeance and Mighty Shot and Crack Shot and your target, is going down, while he is smoking his cigar ourside his hooch.

For the record, myself, two tours in Afghanistan. Not as sniper, but spent much time attached to the infantry and their snipers.

 

                          Wow wasnt going to respond to this any more , but since you asked there Peace ill answer some questions

            No, I never shot through a setinel walker while in diala prov, though after 72 hour overwatch jacked up on methanphetimines sometimes I thought I seen them HA., but I am not a memeber of Deathwatch-They would face corrupted guardsmen fairly often I would expect or PDF.

He was wrong about several points I stated them all, gave a page referance and even typed out the discrepencies.

You say a decent rifle, and all I have said was that it is not a decent rifle. I am trying to give players that want to be snipers something to start with that is more on par with the other weapon types. Someone suggested allowing one of the later bolters to be used, if you want to do that go ahead. The Exitus Rifle I know is not your average sniper rifle, though I fail to see how the Elite of Elite in space marines would use an average sniper rifle. 

So, in your time in afganistan did you witness the snipers using crystalized needle weapons propelled by laser technology poisoning the afganies? See how rediculous that question sounds? Sound familar?



#43 Face Eater

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 03:10 AM

I think this is another case of, them buffing the basic bolt weapons to the degree that all other weapons are pointless.

Firstly a needle rifle is what space marine scouts use, although why they felt the need to have the basic needle rifle stats from DH with the felling trait to represent it I don't know, the Widower in the I:HB for DH is an example of a upgraded needler (albiet a pistol but at least demonstrates the capabilities).

Especially seeing as the toxic trait is pretty much pointless by this point, tyranids don't even feel it and space marines need to roll something ridiculous like 85 or less to pass. So they really need to use some of the expanded poison rules from the DH GM screen book.

But as it's by far the most subtle weapon, quiet flashless, it's always going to have a place, especially if it's actually being used by scouts.

Secondly, the Stalker Boltgun is the direct upgrade, especially with the decent ammo so I don't know why you don't just that, especially if you are house ruling stuff why don't you just let them start with a stalker? Yes it doesn't have the range you would expect from a modern sniper rifle, non of the weapons have the ranges they of they modern equivalent that's just the way they did it.

Thirdly, yes we have AMR's in the military service, but they are well and truely in the feild of heavy weapons, you might as well have lascannon. Other options are a single shot autocannons, multilasers (monolaser?) with accurate trait, seeing as heavy weapons don't get additional accurate damage you have to go for overkill (there at thread on the DH forums discussing accurate damage in excruiating depth). Basically we are already outside of anypublished materials discriptions of Astartes weapons here so there no real point of refference.



#44 phantomoftruth

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 04:22 AM

Nimon said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Nimon said:

 

I don't see 0 pen going through the window of a sentinel walker piloted by a corrupted guardsmen but hey you go ahead and try it.

If I want a normal Sniper rifle I think I will stick to what I made. Its based off the Exitus Rifle from Ascension. 

 

 

Do you even read what you type?

Just a question.

Not trying to provoke anything, but in the 15 months on the Iran border did you often have to shoot sentinel walker pilots through windows? Do you really think the Exitus Rifle is a NORMAL sniper rifle?

And I am not seeing all this "AK is so wrong it hurts" areas you refer to. So far, everything he has said is in the rules and works just fine. Yes the bolters are only 50M shorter on range, normally. But at extreme, when you use the times four distance, they are 200M shorter on range. Whats more, a heavy bolter cannot take advantage of some of the other aspects the sniper can, such as the accurate bonus, or scopes and sites.

Besides, while the weapon is important, the sniper is the most important part of the equation. His BS, his talents, his skills.

All you need is a decent rifle, Eye of Vengeance and Mighty Shot and Crack Shot and your target, is going down, while he is smoking his cigar ourside his hooch.

For the record, myself, two tours in Afghanistan. Not as sniper, but spent much time attached to the infantry and their snipers.

 

 

 

                          Wow wasnt going to respond to this any more , but since you asked there Peace ill answer some questions

            No, I never shot through a setinel walker while in diala prov, though after 72 hour overwatch jacked up on methanphetimines sometimes I thought I seen them HA., but I am not a memeber of Deathwatch-They would face corrupted guardsmen fairly often I would expect or PDF.

He was wrong about several points I stated them all, gave a page referance and even typed out the discrepencies.

You say a decent rifle, and all I have said was that it is not a decent rifle. I am trying to give players that want to be snipers something to start with that is more on par with the other weapon types. Someone suggested allowing one of the later bolters to be used, if you want to do that go ahead. The Exitus Rifle I know is not your average sniper rifle, though I fail to see how the Elite of Elite in space marines would use an average sniper rifle. 

So, in your time in afganistan did you witness the snipers using crystalized needle weapons propelled by laser technology poisoning the afganies? See how rediculous that question sounds? Sound familar?

 

In your time with your head up your a$$ did you ever see Jesus? This Entire thread you have been nothing but a troll and an argumentative jackwit. PeacekeeperK and AK WERE trying to help you.

Perhaps you've never heard of Errata, it's the little corrections that are issued from time to time. It's RAI made RAW. Things like Aim, Accuracy, Scope, and Talents all end up playing a part in how lethal a weapon in the game can be

Personally, I do not care if you do not like or use the Astartes Sniper Rifle. It is not intended to single shot a Space Marine. You made house rules to make something, yay for you, people do it all the time. Sometimes they even post them in the 'House Rules' section of the DeathWatch forums.

Welcome to DeathWatch, your rules growing pains may vary. Real World comparisons to the WH40k Universe Technology fails at the most basic of levels.

This isn't Iraq or Afghanistan, we are not shooting at you or trying to kill you, so Frakking chill.



#45 Blatifagus

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 10:08 AM

I agree that the Astartes Sniper Rifle looks a bit (a lot) week compared to the Exitus rifle. But that's as it should be. It's like comparing a handgrenade with a 12cm grenade. Both are lethal but made for different purposes.

I imagine the Deathwatch (or any Chapter for that matter) would consider the job to be done when they descide which weapons to use.

  • Assassinate someone without a trace? Astartes sniper rifle. The corpse wouldn't even have a noticable wound.
  • Assassinate an ork warboss and sow confusion (and hopefully fear) into the mob? Stalker pattern boltgun. The boss' head would suddenly explode and the other orks wouldn't even see where the shot came from (and would probably start a fight over the possition as boss!)
  • Kill a Hive tyrant from a distance? Possibly stalker bolter, but most likely lascannon or missile launcher.
  • Destroy an advancing horde of genestealers/orks/mutants etc.? Heavy bolter, flamer, assaultcannon... Anything BIG and rapid firing
  • Taking out a Demon Prince? Two words. Orbital bombardment. Or  if that doesn't do it: Exterminatus or maybe sending a message to the Grey Knights. Demon princes are WAY out of the average marines league.

Back to the OP's animosity towards the needle rifle. I wouldn't give a projectile of frozen poison penetration. It's far to brittle. But with the Accurate rules it doesn't really need penetration to be lethal. With a fair shot you'll do 3D10 damage (aprox. 17 on average). If you hit an eldar with mesh armour you'll deal 14 wounds to the poor sap! And if he then fail with his T-70% roll, he'll get another D10. One shot. Most likely one kill. Even without Righteous Fury.

Against a traitor marine (8 AP, TB 4 - no unnatural since the weapon is Felling) you'd deal 5 points of damage and with a failed T-25% roll (one re-roll due to oolitic kidney but no +20 from the promnor since the toxin isn't ingested) he'll recieve 1D10 more. Not enough to kill him, but not entirely useless. You'll hit him again next round without him knowing where you are! And the next, and the next...
 



#46 pearldrum1

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 12:45 AM

Fresnel said:

 

Imo the advantages of the Astartes sniper rifle are:

  • The ammo is very, very light. Allowing the scout initiates to operate independently for very long periods. If I recall correctly scouts carry the device that generates the ammo.
  • The operation is virtually silent and flashless
  • Using called shots on unarmoured locations - one shot kills are likely

As far as DW is concerned, an Astartes sniper rifle (with scope) is a nice secondary weapon to have. Btw I would be inclined to rule that the snipe rifles always come with scopes - and this is included in the req cost.

Clearly it is not the equivalent to a modern sniper rifle. But how many 50-caliber rounds does a modern sniper carry? Is he dropped behind enemy lines and expected to operate independently for months?

 If you want the 40K equivalent to a modern sniper rifle - perhaps a Lascannon...

 

 

 

                             But how many modern day snipers are space marines with unnatural strx2? Thats my point they should have exceptional weapons beyond what we have now.  A modern day sniper behind enemy lines would use a .308 if western or 7.62 if eastern of corse thats in general if you were some black ops badass im sure you would have something more custom.

 

Just to be a jerk about it, the difference between .308 and 7.62x51mm is not East vs West. It is a measurement in calibre against a measurement in mm, or more commonly civilain variant versus NATO variant. This is the same with .223 and 5.56. The latter NATO variants have a minisculy larger diameter bullet and require more headspace in a chamber. Practically this means that weapons chambered to 7.62x51 can fire both 7.62 AND .308 rounds, but weapons chambered to .308 can ONLY fire .308 (same with 5.56 and .223).

 

This doesn't pertain to the larger questions in this conversation at all. I am just a stickler about crap like this.

 

Apologies, continue.



#47 Korvis

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 02:56 AM

ANYONE taking into account that this is a GAME?  Direct correlation to existing military technology is irrelevant......they don't even have stabilized turrets in their tanks and fighting vehicles FFS.....they HAVE to stop to shoot and rub the tanks down with sacred oils to keep the machine spirits within the metal happy.


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#48 pearldrum1

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 05:09 AM

ANYONE taking into account that this is a GAME?  Direct correlation to existing military technology is irrelevant......they don't even have stabilized turrets in their tanks and fighting vehicles FFS.....they HAVE to stop to shoot and rub the tanks down with sacred oils to keep the machine spirits within the metal happy.

 

 

This.

 

 

This gets overlooked way too often. Amen.


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#49 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:18 AM

I do agree it shouldn't be an exotic weapon for a Space Marine though, since you do use one in your time in the training company.

 

There's a slightly updated sniper rifle (along with quite a bit of other updates to 'scout' kit - armour, shotguns, etc) in Rites of Battle.

 

Two things worth noting are that (a) it has a built in scope at no cost, and that (b) whilst an exotic weapon it is explicitely covered by the Astartes Weapon Training talent, even though other exotic weapons are not.



#50 Santiago

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:57 AM

Another point...

Space Marine where pretty impressive armour, they are frontline fighters....want snipers, play Imperial Guard.

S.



#51 pearldrum1

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:18 PM

Another point...

Space Marine where pretty impressive armour, they are frontline fighters....want snipers, play Imperial Guard.

S.

 

Not necessarily. In Codex Compliant Chapters, Tenth company in the Scout company and they do not don normal Power Armor and their whole business is infiltration, intelligence, clandestine operations and sniping. I would say it is a moot point, but since Chapters dedicate an entire Company to it, it is a little more than a non-point.



#52 Korvis

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 06:38 PM

Just to be a jerk about it, the difference between .308 and 7.62x51mm is not East vs West. It is a measurement in calibre against a measurement in mm, or more commonly civilain variant versus NATO variant. This is the same with .223 and 5.56. The latter NATO variants have a minisculy larger diameter bullet and require more headspace in a chamber. Practically this means that weapons chambered to 7.62x51 can fire both 7.62 AND .308 rounds, but weapons chambered to .308 can ONLY fire .308 (same with 5.56 and .223).

 

This doesn't pertain to the larger questions in this conversation at all. I am just a stickler about crap like this.

 

Apologies, continue.

 

 

Disagree.  The PRIMARY difference between 5.56mm (NATO) and .223 (Remington) is SAMMI Pressures produced during detonation of the cartridge.  Though the "miniscule" difference in the chambering allows 5.56mm to be fed .223 and NOT vice-versa safely, it is the pressure difference in the cartridges that is the SAFETY factor for not chambering a 5.56mm into something designed and chambered for .223.  Same goes for the 7.62x51 and .308.  The newer standards for the 7.62x51 surpass those of the .308 developed pre and during the Viet Nam War.  Higher pressures produce flatter and longer trajectories and the ballistics tables with the same weight bullets prove this out.

 

BOT (Back on Topic), these weapons are set in a time and place where humans and other races of beings have natural AND supernatural means of traveling across the Galaxy at speeds that are NOT more than theoretical by todays current technology.  Beings that are hatched out of pods (Orks) or that can craft organic structures through a meditative "singing" (Eldar Bonesingers) and so on.  Suspend your premise of comparison to currently employed technologies because it has NO place in this imaginary GAMEworld of the 41st Millenium.  Just get over it and move on.....SERIOUSLY.


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#53 pearldrum1

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:45 PM

 

Just to be a jerk about it, the difference between .308 and 7.62x51mm is not East vs West. It is a measurement in calibre against a measurement in mm, or more commonly civilain variant versus NATO variant. This is the same with .223 and 5.56. The latter NATO variants have a minisculy larger diameter bullet and require more headspace in a chamber. Practically this means that weapons chambered to 7.62x51 can fire both 7.62 AND .308 rounds, but weapons chambered to .308 can ONLY fire .308 (same with 5.56 and .

 

FFG keeps FUBARing this attempt at editing.

 

In response to Korvis' comment, No, I dont think we are in disagreement at all. My main beef was that the difference are not some sort of subjective "East" vs. "West" argument. I was aware that pressure played a part in those differences, but not to the extent you have described. So, thank you for that. I consider myself newly knowledged.


Edited by pearldrum1, 05 December 2013 - 05:18 PM.


#54 Magnus Grendel

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:15 AM

 

Another point...

Space Marine where pretty impressive armour, they are frontline fighters....want snipers, play Imperial Guard.

S.

 

Not necessarily. In Codex Compliant Chapters, Tenth company in the Scout company and they do not don normal Power Armor and their whole business is infiltration, intelligence, clandestine operations and sniping. I would say it is a moot point, but since Chapters dedicate an entire Company to it, it is a little more than a non-point.

 

 

 

Also, the Deathwatch aren't just frontline fighters. They are equal parts the Expendables, the SAS and the Men In Black. Covert ops fall right in their balliwick, and I've run missions with kill teams dropped in in scout armour more times than I can conveniently count. We finished one pretty recently, as a matter of coincidence; attacking a Tau logistics facility (surrounded by drone security perimeters with energy-scanners - so the players pointedly took stripped-down scout armour and SP weapons with naery a battery or circuit between the lot of them and snuck right up to the access gate before they opened fire...)


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#55 Balenorn

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Posted 06 December 2013 - 08:09 PM

3 year thread necro! that is some going.



#56 pearldrum1

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 02:00 AM

Someone has to do it.



#57 Annaamarth

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:45 AM

Wrong section anyway.  From OP, belongs in house rules.

 

If you don't like the sniper rifles, increase all sniper rifle ranges by 100m, or allow a talent that increases all range increments by 150% after taking an aim action.  Also remember:

 

Astartes Sniper Rifle (Needle/Crystal thing)- less sniper rifle, more tool of assassination.  Good for dealing with traitor guardsmen commanders when in camp, Tau Ethereals, and senior Tau Fire Warriors who neglected the battle armour training in favour of advanced infantry specialty.

 

Stalker Boltgun- Designated Marksman rifle.  Add 100m to range increment and targeter, becomes sniper rifle.  Good multi-role weapon.  Can fire on the run with accuracy- unlike any .50 calibre rifle you care to name (yes I know bolters are 0.75 cal.  I'm illustrating a point).

 

Lascannon- Anti-material sniper rifle- also, anti-big-bug rifle during Tyranid engagements.  Can NOT fire on the run.  This is the .50 cal rifle (or 20mm rifle) equivalent.  Also good for shooting traitor sentinel pilots through viewports, or for 

 

Relic Stalker-pattern single shot heavy bolter that you discuss with the GM and he decides to allow- custom job granted by the Deathwatch, because you are the single best sniper this side of the Jericho Gate.

 

That's when you can throw around numbers like 1200m range, or base the weapon off of an Exitus.  Until then, nope.  Also, shame on you for your three year necro.


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#58 Santiago

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:29 PM

With a range of 200m the Exitus has a very silly range, I upped in my game to 500m...sounded more reasonable...a max range of 800m was just not good enough



#59 pearldrum1

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:01 PM

OK, so I had a player just use the Astartes Sniper Rifle for the first time and the damage seems abysmally low. Let me know if I did everything right.

 

Targets and hits a single Ork Boy in the right arm. No AP. TB 8 (4 after Felling (1))

 

Does 5 damage; 1 damage after TB 4.

 

Ork makes a toughness test at -25 putting it at >20 to succeed +10 for Unnatural Toughness, >30 to succeed.

 

Rolls in the 50s. Failure. Roll 1d10 Impact damage due to Toxic quality. Roll 2.

 

Total 3 damage?? That can't be right.



#60 Routa-maa

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 11:04 PM

Did he use Aim, and if he did how many DoS did he get.

Remember Accurate gives you 1d10 extra damage per 2 DoS, for max 2d10 extra damage.

 

Otherwise your math seems correct to me. But don't take it for granted, just woke up and getting ready for work.


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