Jump to content



Photo

Sniper Rifles


  • Please log in to reply
64 replies to this topic

#21 bmaynard

bmaynard

    Member

  • Members
  • 136 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 04:05 AM

@Gantz

Scouts: Astartes Sniper Rifle

Vindicare Assassin: Exitus Rifle

 

@Nimon

Keep in mind the Astartes Rifle is an exotic as well, so would require an exotic proficiency.

The Stalker is a far superior sniping weapon. With a good roll to hit, your damage roll is 5d10 keeping 4 of those die, Adding 5 and ignoring 5 armor.

With the sniper your damage roll is at most 3d10 keeping 3. The difference is, the sniper ignores 1 level of Unnatural toughness (so you're getting an extra 4-5ish points through) and if the target fails a toughness test you get an additonal d10 through, ignoring their toughness and armor.

In the end, they can do roughly equivalent damage, it's just harder to get it all through with the sniper rifle. Add to that the extra 500xp required for exotic weapon training for the sniper rifle and the fact that you don't have access to that talent until Rank 3 Deathwatch Advances and I don't see why anyone would ever use the rifle.

Especially once you take into account the versatility afforded by the various types of bolt ammo. With a fire selector you can maintain a mag of Stalker shells for silent shooting, Kraken for anti-armor like Chaos Marines and maybe some Hellfire rounds for the extra righteous fury chance.

I have a Space Wolf sniper I'm running currently and I love the Stalker. Started out with a Godwyn with Stalker rounds and graduated to the Stalker at respected.

 

 



#22 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 05:09 AM

 

 

 Nimon said:

Um I don't even know what you are talking about with the 4x. Scroll up I never said something COULD be fired at 4x range. YOU SAID EXTREME RANGE IS 4x. I corrected you and said it is 3x and that you can fire at -30 per standard rules pg 247 so get off the crack.

 

 

Okay, I'll explain to you: you said you wanted to have a sniper rifle that could fire targets up to 1200m away. I pointed out to you that this would require a base range of 300m, not 600m as you suggested. In the context of our conversation we were thus talking about the ceiling of range bands, not the floor. As such my statement that extreme range is x4 accurate. I hope you understand it now, thanks.

 

Nimon said:

Needler:Um this isnt cyber punk, your not going on hacker missions or casting nanites into the air. I didn't say it was a needler THE BOOK did so take it up with Ross I guess.

Let me quote you from today "Ya I read it guess you didn't read the part about how that is silly firing a needle and not penetrating armour." If it was a caberpunk-style needle rifle you'd be justified in complaining about the lack of penetration. If it fired standard flechette ammon, then yes it should have significant penetration. What I was referring to instead was that the tech used given the description does not necessitate a high Pen or any Pen at all.

Nimon said:

I know that weapon isnt designed to snipe someone behind glass! IT IS A SUB-PAR Sniper Weapon which is how I started this forum and you have attempted to argue with me about it and misquoted half the book doing so.

I think you should reread what I have written. First of all I have nowhere written that I am fond of the Sniper Rifle. Personally I, in fact, think it is of limited use. Instead I have merely pointed out the RAW range rules to you. Secondly you seemed to have made the assumption that it needed a higher Pen and I pointed out the tech used doesn't strictly require that (as opposed to true flechette ammunition) and that the rifle can see some use under the right conditions.

 

Nimon said:

I know all the pages because I own and have read the book. Ask away.

Ha I checked the link all it did was take me to the forums, I don't think you ever check your sources
 

 

So you didn't take a look at the topic and didn't see that me and others have debated range before? And frankly given this remark of yours: "So If I wanted 1200m I should make it 600? How about I use common sense and say it can fire up to 1200m with no penalty to clear it up for everyone." it didn't seem as if you had properly understood the range rules.

Oh and "the sources" have been checked by people in that topic - in fact what KommissarK said in this topic is based on the exchanges in the topic provided. Anyway it seems you have a better grasp on ranges now so it's all good. :-)

 

Alex

PS "You want me to snipe the Deamon Prince? ok give me something that can take that bad boy down." Lascannon. Nothing less will probably do (and even then you need the RAW Righteous Fury rules). If you set your ambitions less high, work your way up to the Stalker-pattern Boltgun. I believe these (and similar patterns) are the principle sniper weapons of the Deathwatch.



#23 boruta666

boruta666

    Member

  • Members
  • 238 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:09 PM

Sniper rifle... change lascannon name to: "Las sniper rifle cannon" put targeter on top and u have your weapon of choice.

And please dont bring real world army experience to Deathwatch, u play as enhanced super soldier wearing smal tank as armour and who spit acid, who use spaceships that fly through hell to make shortcuts and who use sword to fight when he could just shoot at enemies with his mini rocket launcher. (again sarcasm filter ON gentelmans)



#24 Unusualsuspect

Unusualsuspect

    Member

  • Members
  • 367 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:09 PM

 For the record, I'd have to say that Sniping a Daemon Prince isn't that out of the range for a Stalker Boltgun and increased Righteous Fury chances...  Get 4 degrees of success (and with Aim and single shot, that shouldn't be hard), and you're rolling 5 dice, keeping 4.  Hellfire Rounds give that a good 67% or so chance for Righteous Fury.  Depending on the opponent and the bonuses involved, that is generally auto-hit-on-anything-but-96+ or automatic.  Average 29ish, Pen 4 (negates natural armor). +19 from first Righteous Fury, +13 second Righteous Fury, +8 third Righteous Fury

Lascannon is a little heavier, but also probably a bit more capable of getting the job done.  It only has a 47% or so chance for Righteous Fury, though it certainly hits heavier with its base damage.  Average 43, Pen 10.  +20 first Righteous Fury, +9 second Righteous Fury, +4 for third Righteous Fury

I should map this data out... though I'm guessing on the bonus from Tearing for 5d10 lowest.



#25 Nimon

Nimon

    Member

  • Members
  • 489 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:12 PM

 

                               Hey if you guys are happy with the Needler use it all you want, I haven't seen anyone pick it up. I gave good reasons not going  to go back through them. AK-73 still so wrong it hurts to read but I am going to let it go.



#26 Unusualsuspect

Unusualsuspect

    Member

  • Members
  • 367 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:21 PM

 So what is wrong with a Stalker Boltgun as a sniper rifle?  Why are you putting something as mundane as a sniper rifle that shoots mere bullets as having nearly the same effect as a rocket-gyro-propelled grenade-missile sniper rifle or some other, similarly wtfinsane heavy-duty tech-heavy weaponry?  Keep in mind the setting - bullets tend to have this "richochet" thing when they're aimed at Deathwatch Astartes.  It literally takes a hail of bullets to even POSSIBLY damage a Space Marine.  What can hurt a space marine?  Super-tech heavy (melta, plasma), RPG shooter (bolter), and monstrously nasty death in melee (Powerfists and the like).

 

Have you modified your intended Sniper Rifle stats in any way during this discussion?  If so, please share - we'll help you balance it into the system.  (Some of us might be snarky, though).



#27 Nimon

Nimon

    Member

  • Members
  • 489 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:25 PM

 

                                 I Did mention it was based off the Exitus Rifle from the Vindicare Temple Assassins In ASCENSION, I even gave it one less PEN so maybe that is A GERNADE also. Last post about this you guys figure it out, well see how much fun your sniper has not killing targets as your other characters wipe the floor with them then maybe people will look into it with fresh eyes.



#28 pvhammer

pvhammer

    Member

  • Members
  • 52 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:37 PM

Unusualsuspect said:

 Space Marine scouts have been modeled with both Long Las and Needle Rifle sniper weapons, as far as I can recall.

 

 

 

 

In the Space Marine Codex, Scouts use the sniper rifle. It has Armour Piercing 6 so it should get some penetration. It is a heavy weapon that gets rending and pinning. I don't see how this "needle gun" represents an Astartes Sniper rifle.



#29 pvhammer

pvhammer

    Member

  • Members
  • 52 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:40 PM

Plus how EXOTIC is a weapon that Scouts use?

 



#30 Michigan

Michigan

    Member

  • Members
  • 41 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 02:21 PM

In the first edition (Rogue Trader) and second edition of WH40K, Space Marine Scouts were issued Needle Sniper Rifles. These weapons were specifically noted in Warhammer 40,000: Wargear (1993) as having poor armor penetration. These days, they are just given something that looks identical, but is only called a Sniper Rifle... GW dropped the word needle along with 95% of the fluff that used to be present in their older books.

Frankly, I'd just up the range of the sniper rifle already in the DW book by 100m. Remember, this is an anti-personnel weapon, not an anti-material rifle analog to the modern day .50 caliber weapons. Although, I think one of the Dark Heresy supplements contained rules for the Exitus Rifle.
 


 



#31 Unusualsuspect

Unusualsuspect

    Member

  • Members
  • 367 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 06:14 PM

In any reasonable sort of conversion on tabletop stats to FFG stats, the best an AP 6 gun should get would be 2 at most, which is for most purposes insignificant.  The Rending and Pinning rules have to do with the way the Accurate quality works with aimed basic weapons (the pinning, well... all sniper weapons get that in tabletop.  That doesn't get associated much with sniping in Dark Heresy).

 

3d10 damage (a good, i.e. 4 degrees of success, shot) has a decent shot at wounding just about any non-Space-Marine-toughness target, and even has an acceptable chance of wounding a Space Marine, especially that Captain with his helmet off looking so heroic and commanding on a hill in broad daylight.  From there, the Toxic quality generally has an above average chance to deal an extra d10 of unmitigated damage.  Will it one-shot-kill a Space Marine Captain or a Daemon Prince.  No, it's a frickin' needle.  Can it kill an Imperial Guard General or a distracted Farseer or a Tau Shas'ui, and thus sow confusion and fear into the enemies ranks?  Yep.

 

I think, for tabletop balance purposes, Astartes Scouts don't use weapons much differant than almost any sniper in the tabletop game uses (4+ to wound, AP 6, 36", Sniper), when in fact they really aught to spring for Stalker patter boltguns for every Scout.  Unfortunately, like the very ponderous Imperium they've designed, GW isn't likely to change that sort of detail any time soon... at least, not until they can make money off of forcing you to buy new models!



#32 borithan

borithan

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,142 posts

Posted 23 November 2010 - 10:05 PM

40k Imperial sniper rifles are not designed for taking out heavily armoured targets at long range. For that you get a lascannon, missile launcher or something similar. The Imperial sniper rifle is the needle sniper rifle, a weapon optimised for silent killings. As said, it fires a sliver of crystalised toxin which is propelled by the low power, invisible laser. Now, this needle is brittle which means it is awful at penetrating armour (not subpar... awful). In 1st edition 40k it gave a positive armour save modifier, ie it made armour perform better than normal. A guy just wearing clothes was given a 6+ save. However, this was compensated for by the fact that it could be equipped with a poison which would automatically kill or paralyse anyone (including Space Marines) unlucky enough not to make their save (ie no toughness check), and, probably less importantly, that units could use the gun and still remain "hidden".

 

Now, it has been renamed as the generic "sniper rifle" but it remains the same gun (the Scouts are clearly using needle sniper rifles. It looks like a lasgun, but then it is a laser, and it has a port in the side to put the needle in (or extract it if there is a problem). The term "sniper rifle" is just used because it is a wargear entry that covers a wide variety of weapons, including eldar weapons and the long las (which was an invention of Dan Abnett for Gaunt's Ghosts... which I understand for some reasons, but irks me slightly as well). The AP 6 (and rending) is more to do with being able to target unarmoured areas with extreme precision than any representation of armour piercing ability.

 

The 40k rpg rules don't really represent the needle rifle very well, probably for balance reasons. "Toxic"  is nasty, especially to Dark Heresy characters, but it isn't bad enough, and is really a bit "meh" against big gribblies like Space Marines, but it looks like it was always intended to be a stop gap measure in Dark Heresy until more detailed poison rules came out (in the GM kit. "Toxic" as is is basically the same as "Necrotic", just Necrotic allows for more flexibility). Now, I think the new Deathwatch gear that allows the creation of needles of any poison is a getting to a "true" representation of their ability. Take one of the stronger lethal (or paralytic) poisons from the DH GM kit, the couple they have in Deathwatch itself, or create your own. Also, all needle sniper rifles should have Felling, not just the Astartes one. Being big and tough is no protection against the poison (though their various organs of course would normally provide their relevant protections).

 

The needle sniper rifle has never been meant to be compared to things like .50 anti-material rifles. In fact, it was never really meant to be compared to anything in real life military equipment. It was based on pre-existing sci-fi ideas of needle rifles which, when people looked at it carefully, were always going to have awful armour penetration. The closest thing to purpose and effect so far was probably the umbrella gun used to poison that Russian defector in London during the Cold War but turned into a long range weapon.



#33 Peacekeeper_b

Peacekeeper_b

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,478 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 12:27 AM

Nimon said:

I don't see 0 pen going through the window of a sentinel walker piloted by a corrupted guardsmen but hey you go ahead and try it.

If I want a normal Sniper rifle I think I will stick to what I made. Its based off the Exitus Rifle from Ascension. 

Do you even read what you type?

Just a question.

Not trying to provoke anything, but in the 15 months on the Iran border did you often have to shoot sentinel walker pilots through windows? Do you really think the Exitus Rifle is a NORMAL sniper rifle?

And I am not seeing all this "AK is so wrong it hurts" areas you refer to. So far, everything he has said is in the rules and works just fine. Yes the bolters are only 50M shorter on range, normally. But at extreme, when you use the times four distance, they are 200M shorter on range. Whats more, a heavy bolter cannot take advantage of some of the other aspects the sniper can, such as the accurate bonus, or scopes and sites.

Besides, while the weapon is important, the sniper is the most important part of the equation. His BS, his talents, his skills.

All you need is a decent rifle, Eye of Vengeance and Mighty Shot and Crack Shot and your target, is going down, while he is smoking his cigar ourside his hooch.

For the record, myself, two tours in Afghanistan. Not as sniper, but spent much time attached to the infantry and their snipers.



#34 Gantz the slaughterer

Gantz the slaughterer

    Member

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:35 AM

hope this help....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-materiel_rifle



#35 ak-73

ak-73

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,690 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 03:14 AM

Peacekeeper_b said:

Nimon said:

 

I don't see 0 pen going through the window of a sentinel walker piloted by a corrupted guardsmen but hey you go ahead and try it.

If I want a normal Sniper rifle I think I will stick to what I made. Its based off the Exitus Rifle from Ascension. 

 

 

Do you even read what you type?

Just a question.

Not trying to provoke anything, but in the 15 months on the Iran border did you often have to shoot sentinel walker pilots through windows? Do you really think the Exitus Rifle is a NORMAL sniper rifle?

And I am not seeing all this "AK is so wrong it hurts" areas you refer to. So far, everything he has said is in the rules and works just fine. Yes the bolters are only 50M shorter on range, normally. But at extreme, when you use the times four distance, they are 200M shorter on range. Whats more, a heavy bolter cannot take advantage of some of the other aspects the sniper can, such as the accurate bonus, or scopes and sites.

Besides, while the weapon is important, the sniper is the most important part of the equation. His BS, his talents, his skills.

All you need is a decent rifle, Eye of Vengeance and Mighty Shot and Crack Shot and your target, is going down, while he is smoking his cigar ourside his hooch.

For the record, myself, two tours in Afghanistan. Not as sniper, but spent much time attached to the infantry and their snipers.

 

To be fair, I can understand why someone would be disappointed by an Astartes Sniper Rifle having no penetration if one has modern day sniper rifles in mind. Also personally I'd rather ask the Master of The Forges Harl Greyweaver if the vaults of the Watch Fortress don't contain a Nomad Hunting Instrument per chance.

 

I think sometimes comparing real life technology and 40K technology turns into a stretch. The Astartes Sniper Rifle is probably made for infiltrating a xenos hive and sniping a civilian xenos leader or other "soft targets". The Rifle has its problems against enemies with a high Toughness and/or many wounds, such as hive tyrants, and as such will not be able to guarantee a one-shot kill of even an Ork warboss.

 

Alex



#36 JinxZero

JinxZero

    Member

  • Members
  • 19 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 01:21 PM

Standard Astartes Anti-materials rifle = Lascannon.

Sniper Rifle = Weapon given to Space Marine Scouts for the purposes of obtaining information and practicing marksmanship from a safe distance. (Note: I refer to the table top game, in which, only space marine scouts can be given sniper rifles.)

 

You know what I do with my marines when I want to shoot high value targets over long distances? I shoot it with a lascannon. Long range, high power, precision weapon. Ticks all the boxes. (More precicisely I engage pieces of high value wargear, I would never, EVER engages live enemy personnel with my extremely accurate high powered anti-materials weapon... those said pieces of wargear just so happen to be attached to the bodies of certain high value enemy personnel. Or contained within transport vehicles loaded with said enemy personnel.)

 

For anyone who cares. 25200074.



#37 Peacekeeper_b

Peacekeeper_b

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,478 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 09:58 PM

Yes, in the tt game my IG Lascanons are often used to obliterate command squads, high value targets and 2+ armour save bad guys. But in the RPG it is different.

However, I suppose the game has no real rules on how to conceal a lascanon or anything like that, and I am sure the encumbrance rules allow for a space marine to run, walk, swim, practice yoga, play soccer and eat with chop sticks while toting around a lascanon.

But how much energy is put out by a lascanon? How big is its muzzle flash? How much noise does it make? How hard is it to crawl to within 700 meters of the target, concealed in a field of grass, take the day or two it takes to snipe out the Tau Ethereal, and after taking the shot slowly scooting away unobserved?

Even the stalker bolt gun is lousy for that. Heck with the proper timing you could fire the astartes sniper rifle, kill old Tau and Guts commander as he smokes a cigar ourside his hooch and if no-one was around the immediate vicinity of the tau leader no one would know he was even dead until they came to report ot him at his hooch.

You fire the lascanon and chances are y ou are going to wake up the entire tau command post, leave a burning blaze of woods, grass and foilage leading right back to your location and give away any chance of hiding wiht muzzle flash from hell.

Plus you dont get the accurate trait with the lascanon and I am unsure if it can have a scope/site attached to it.



#38 Gantz the slaughterer

Gantz the slaughterer

    Member

  • Members
  • 143 posts

Posted 24 November 2010 - 10:53 PM

we are in the 40.000 millenium....consideration

the space marine wear super ceramite armor....why ceramite? because offer better protection to the standard laser weapons.....

why the space marine are so superior if they wear power armor? because in this way we don't have problem from toxic, adverse meterology, hillness.....etc.etc.etf...

the space marine are the best armored infantry....they use bolt weapons with rapid fire self propelled explosive rocket...and they was created to help the reunification of the imperium.....in that time they fought with the less armored eldar.....the non armored psyker...and many other....but none of this have good power armor like the marine....

so the super armedarmored space marine infantry really need a sniper rifle?

by the way....the scout are really precious....they became the next generation of marine, but they are much vulnerable without the power armor.

so the scout are best in infiltration and recover information, they are armed with bolter to defend himself, rarely they have plasma or melee....better if they give us cordinate to destroy target insted of combat action....in time of need better they have a sniper rifle in order to kill a non armored target and remain absolutely hidden!!! (but if the scout use exotic weapons, all marine have the exotic weapons skill?)

they are too value to the chapter.

if you are a marine and want a sniper rilfe, convert your sacred bolter to the stalker pattern and add a scope.

if you are an assasin, use the exitus weapons....

but we play DeathWatch mission.....the best of the best xeno killer....

hope this help.....

and as usual sorry for the english

cheer

 

:)

 



#39 Surak

Surak

    Member

  • Members
  • 307 posts

Posted 25 November 2010 - 01:01 AM

Just to wade in on the sniper front with a few examples from our campaign

I've been playing a sniper character in our DW campaign (technically 2 after an incident with a firewarrior squad finished my wolf-scout off) and I have used both the Needle rifle and the Stalker. My GM decided that as scouts are trained to use them all marines can use needle snipers, so my starting sniper weapon was the needle rifle.

Now having read the thread above i'll agree that its a fairly un-impressive statline for a sniper rifle HOWEVER when used to engage low-level enemy commanders (squad and platoon level (we are figthing Tau) or against smaller nids (after the Apothicary in the group played with the ammo) the needle rifle seemed sufficient for the task. Yes it lacks AP, but put a silencer on it and good luck to anything trying to find you. Put a scope on it and range becomes less of an issue. Take the time to aim and the extra damage dice are very useful. all in all a great weapon for dealing with soft targets.

After a few sessions my Wolf-Scout graduated to a Stalker, just in time for a full blown do-or-die extraction mission from a Nid held world.

I've got to say the upgrade was impressive. We have rulled that if a weapon gets tearing then all of its damage dice gets tearing, so my stalker tanked up on hellfire rounds aiming + a preysense sight was a rude shock for our GM when he sent a few big gribblies at us. First of he ambushed us with a lictor - which started trying to quietly drag our Black Templar Assault marine away. Being a wolf I noticed the lack of marine, spotted the lickter, and proceeded to 1-shot kill it with the stalker. Later on in the same mission the Apothicary managed to create some toxins and treat a clip of hellfire rounds for me making the end of mission battle a little odd.

We were holding out on the roof of an imperial facility with nids climbing the walls waiting for a thunderhawk to pick us and our objective up. About halfway through the holding action a Carnifex lumbers into view and splats a few npc's with a venom cannon. I very lucky roll later and mr fex is feeling less healthy thanks to the teams heavy bolter, allowing me to tip him over the edje with a single stalker round. Now the GM is clearly wanting to keep things interesting and so throws a Hive Tyrant at us a few rounds before the thunderhawk arrives. As everyone else is engaged in dealing with the hordes it fell to me to try and kill the Tyrant. Lady luck liked me that evening and 100+damage later Mr Tyrant has gone the way of Mr Fex.

Now move on a session and my wolf has gone to Russ's halls thanks to getting caught in the open by 25 firewarriors, so im now playing a Storm Warden who was training the 10th company scouts before his deathwatch rotation so is something of a recon specialist (something our group lacks)

Now im back to 0 renown again so its back to the Needle rifle, and in the first session I managed to take out a Tau Sergeant from 500m without the Tau being able to spot me.

 

In short I've used both the Astartes Sniper options, and I gm Dark Heresy so i've used my fair share of other snipers in the 40k universe, and if you use them as they were intended they are both viable sniping options - just don't expect a needle rifle to take out a light vehicle, for that you need a stalker and some kraken rounds - and don't expect someone to mistake the victim of a stalker for being asleep at his post or having died from an illness, thats what a needle weapon is for.

Regards

Surak

 


Knowledge is power, and power corrupts.Therefore library's are the source of all evil.

My DH beta 2 aptitude calc is here https://drive.google...dit?usp=sharing

Part of the TeamACES youtube channel http://www.youtube.c...Ha0q8lrmTRGATFA


#40 Blizzard36

Blizzard36

    Member

  • Members
  • 33 posts

Posted 25 November 2010 - 03:48 PM

I don't consider the Sniper Rifle's stats to be out of line with where they are used in the Space Marine's career.  In thier training.  As has been mentioned, any full fledged battle brother should be using a Stalker pattern boltgun as soon as they can if they want to be sniping.  I do agree it shouldn't be an exotic weapon for a Space Marine though, since you do use one in your time in the training company.

As for your houserule on Tearing Surak, we tried that in DH.  It ends up being WAY too powerfull because of all the extra chances to trigger Righteous Fury.






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS