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Barrier and Movement


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#1 Uvatha

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:42 AM

Can a player move less than their number rolled for movement when they are stopped by the barrier spell. Or are they forced to move in the other direction because they cannot move passed the barrier spell?
 



#2 MishaMonster

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:45 AM

I always play that if the player opts to go towards the barrier, they have to stop their movement the square before the barrier. (Rolled a 5, barrier is on 4, so stop on 3)

The option to go the other way is a free choice at the start of the turn, so hence they are really not forced to go the other way.

 



#3 talismanamsilat

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 05:09 AM

MishaMonster said:

I always play that if the player opts to go towards the barrier, they have to stop their movement the square before the barrier. (Rolled a 5, barrier is on 4, so stop on 3)

The option to go the other way is a free choice at the start of the turn, so hence they are really not forced to go the other way.

 

In your example, this is not the correct way to play it! The player has to move away from the Barrier, as you have to move the full count of the die roll,

Ell



#4 Uvatha

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 01:49 PM

talismanamsilat said:

In your example, this is not the correct way to play it! The player has to move away from the Barrier, as you have to move the full count of the die roll,

Ell

I thought that was right!



#5 Croonos

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 01:28 AM

MishaMonster said:

 

I always play that if the player opts to go towards the barrier, they have to stop their movement the square before the barrier. (Rolled a 5, barrier is on 4, so stop on 3)

The option to go the other way is a free choice at the start of the turn, so hence they are really not forced to go the other way.

 

 

In your example, this is not the correct way to play it! The player has to move away from the Barrier, as you have to move the full count of the die roll,

Ell

OK but how it works in the City?

1) If there is a Barrier in the City space can I move aggains the arrow? Does the Barrier effect overrides special movement City rules?
2) Similar situation but I can go to the shop instead of moving against the arrow. Can I go to the shop and "do nothing" (when I have no gold on my own).
3) If I have a gold (but I do not want to buy in this shop) do I have to perform an action and buy something? Or can I go agains the arrow instead and safe my gold for something else?



#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 04:50 AM

OK but how it works in the City?

1) If there is a Barrier in the City space can I move aggains the arrow? Does the Barrier effect overrides special movement City rules?
2) Similar situation but I can go to the shop instead of moving against the arrow. Can I go to the shop and "do nothing" (when I have no gold on my own).
3) If I have a gold (but I do not want to buy in this shop) do I have to perform an action and buy something? Or can I go agains the arrow instead and safe my gold for something else?

 

Good questions. No easy answers here.

 

The statements I would consider are the following:

 

However, each street space on the City board is marked with an arrow which points in the direction characters must move in order to travel around the street spaces. Characters cannot move against an arrow on a street space unless an ability or effect forces them to do so. (City Rulebook, page 5)

 

the text of Barrier Spell:

 

Cast at the start of your turn or when you have just completed your move. Place this card on any space in your Region not occupied by another character (not in the Inner Region). No character may move onto or through that space until the start of your next turn.

 

and the infamous "Can vs. Cannot" Golden Rule:

 

In any instance where a card’s effect indicates that a character cannot perform an action or use an ability (such as casting a
Spell or using an Object), the character cannot do so. In other words, the forbidding effects of cards override other abilities
and effects.

 

Mixing together the 3 statements, this is how I might resolve the matter:

 

1) Barrier says that I cannot move onto or through the Barrier, so it forbids my normal movement action.

2) Can vs. Cannot says that forbidding effects override other abilities and effects, which might (and I say might) imply that they override the normal rules as well

3) According to City movement rules, if I cannot move in a direction I am forced to move in the opposite direction, even though it is normally not allowed.

 

Other rules, such as rules regarding Shop Spaces, stay in effect as there is no reason why they should be overridden.

 

The answers to you questions would then be:

1) Yes. Yes

2) No

3) Yes. No.

 

Mine's just an opinion and it's the solution that breaks the less rules. All in all, Barrier works for 1 turn per character only, such as Misdirection. Barrier could be used on your own character to visit the same shop twice in the same City loop.

 

A FAQ entry would be fine.


Edited by The_Warlock, 08 February 2014 - 04:51 AM.

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#7 Croonos

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:21 AM

Thanks for explanation. Seem logical, it has just play! But let's step forward.
If Spell (due to a golden rule Can vs Cannot) overrides special movement rules can I cast Barrier or Black Ice on City's Jail space before I encounter Night Guard to prevent against thrown into the Jail? There are no rules saying you can not cast a spell on Jail (or Treasure Chamber or Eyrie).

1) If there is a Barrier on Jail space, do I have to remain on my current space? Or regardless the Barrier I am thrown into Jail?
2) The same with Black Ice on Jail space, do I have to go to Town Square space? Or regardless the Black Ice I am thrown into Jail?
3) If the is a Black Ice on Treasure Chamber or Eyrie do I have to move one space forward to... Dungeon or Highland Entrance? Or can I encounter Treasure Chamber or Eyrie normally?



#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 01:57 PM

Thanks for explanation. Seem logical, it has just play! But let's step forward.
If Spell (due to a golden rule Can vs Cannot) overrides special movement rules can I cast Barrier or Black Ice on City's Jail space before I encounter Night Guard to prevent against thrown into the Jail? There are no rules saying you can not cast a spell on Jail (or Treasure Chamber or Eyrie).

1) If there is a Barrier on Jail space, do I have to remain on my current space? Or regardless the Barrier I am thrown into Jail?
2) The same with Black Ice on Jail space, do I have to go to Town Square space? Or regardless the Black Ice I am thrown into Jail?
3) If the is a Black Ice on Treasure Chamber or Eyrie do I have to move one space forward to... Dungeon or Highland Entrance? Or can I encounter Treasure Chamber or Eyrie normally?

 

You pose interesting questions indeed. This is something that won't happen in 99.9% of the games, but when it happens I would say that Barrier and Black Ice can be cast on Jail (nothing prevents it, as you say) but they have no effect. A character who's thrown in Jail isn't actually moved or teleported there. He's "thrown", which could be read as a special keyword that rules out all effects related to movement, such as Spells that interact with movement.

 

On Treasure Chamber and Eyrie, Black Ice should have no effect, because its effect is unapplicable (no chance to move one more space in the same direction of movement). The Dungeon rules say: "When a character reaches the Treasure Chamber, he must end his move there, even if he has more movement available." and the ill-famed Golden Rules say:

 

Special Abilities vs. Rules

In any instance where a special ability or effect is at a variance with the basic rules, the special ability or effect always overrides the rules.

 

Well, here you can't override the rule because it's impossible to override it. There are no other ways beside stopping on the Treasure Chamber. Pretending to move to the Dungeon Entrance is assuming that the Dungeon Entrance is the space following the Treasure Chamber, which is not true. On the other hand, Barrier works well to delay landing on the Treasure Chamber for 1 or more turns.



#9 DomaGB

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 02:18 AM

I would think a barrier would force a player to not move at all. Unless he had the ability to teleport. The barrier does not give any special or alternate movement, it only hinders.

RoboRally, then Talisman. That's the way it is... ;)


#10 Croonos

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:07 AM

Generally agree with the exception of Jail space. Barrier states that: "No character may move onto or through that space until the start of your next turn." No matter how you got there.
I temted to play that if there is a Barrier on Jail space you have to remain on your current space and if there is a Black Ice you must move to Town Square.
It could be quite usefull when you are about to encounter a card which can send you to Jail.


 



#11 DomaGB

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 03:20 AM

As for Jail, I don't know how that would play out.

I was gonna say that if you can't teleport out, you also can't prevent going in, however the rules don't point to this, as I just checked. Spells from outside jail still work.

 

In a previous game a week or 2 ago, one character died in jail and he had nice stuff. My son wanted it badly and was trying to get to jail on purpose, and later I picked up the jailer follower, it was funny. he never did make it to jail. This was the 1st time I ever saw someone go to Jail though in 4th edition. And it was vicious and I wouldn't wanna go there no matter what was inside!


Edited by DomaGB, 10 February 2014 - 03:43 AM.

RoboRally, then Talisman. That's the way it is... ;)


#12 ososober

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:27 PM

ok so how does barrier spell used with misdirection spell apply, when player casting mis direction states clockwise towards barrier which is only 2 spaces away and player rolls a 5 for movement?



#13 talismanamsilat

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 01:20 AM

ok so how does barrier spell used with misdirection spell apply, when player casting mis direction states clockwise towards barrier which is only 2 spaces away and player rolls a 5 for movement?

 

Then the player must move anti-clockwise!






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