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#21 chrull

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 09:30 PM

1.
a. Unable to read and write.
b. Having little or no formal education.


2.
a. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with language and literature.
b. Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.


3. Ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge: musically illiterate.



#22 Aladaab

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:19 AM

macd21 said:

 

No. Illiterate means that you have not been taught how to read. It does not mean you don't know how to recognise symbols on a map.

I'm aware of the general usage, but your blanket statements are wrong. Google it or something.



#23 gruntl

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 12:57 AM

Fabs said:

 

Wait a minute - there is another category of people who this book is for. Those players who want a reference book to take home, when all the gaming stuff is round the Gm's house. I forget about this category as my gaming companions are as likely to put thier hands in thier pockets towards our hobby, as fly to the moon.

 

 

Yes, that's me :). Looking forward to the book. And I love the component-based play.

Seriously, I don't get what people who like the original core box find so offensive about the new books. If you don't like how they look, don't buy them. We can discuss the merits of the component-based play and how boring standard rules are (or vice versa) all day long (and we already did in the preview thread) but it will all just boil down to "your mileage may vary".

Ghiacciolo said: Published on 9/28/2010 - 05:10:28

I think that everyone GMstering here could come up whit a better plan to play cardless...for example forgetting the cards completely and simply making opposed checks where succes: u hit. Every succes +1 damage, boons for criticals, banes for whatever...

(huh, seems I found a new way to quote stuff, cool)

I'm sorry, but that sounds quite boring to me. There is plenty of systems around that have abilities listed in a book, and players have to remember what they do (or write it down), it still works. Granted, I personally agree that having the abilities on cards is way better, but who am I to decide what other people want.

edit: also, could you please take the "illiterate discussion" to its own thread, this thread is for discussing the Player's guide preview.



#24 commoner

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 01:10 PM

gruntl said:

Fabs said:

 

Wait a minute - there is another category of people who this book is for. Those players who want a reference book to take home, when all the gaming stuff is round the Gm's house. I forget about this category as my gaming companions are as likely to put thier hands in thier pockets towards our hobby, as fly to the moon.

 

 

Yes, that's me :). Looking forward to the book. And I love the component-based play.

Seriously, I don't get what people who like the original core box find so offensive about the new books. If you don't like how they look, don't buy them. We can discuss the merits of the component-based play and how boring standard rules are (or vice versa) all day long (and we already did in the preview thread) but it will all just boil down to "your mileage may vary".

Ghiacciolo said: Published on 9/28/2010 - 05:10:28

I think that everyone GMstering here could come up whit a better plan to play cardless...for example forgetting the cards completely and simply making opposed checks where succes: u hit. Every succes +1 damage, boons for criticals, banes for whatever...

(huh, seems I found a new way to quote stuff, cool)

I'm sorry, but that sounds quite boring to me. There is plenty of systems around that have abilities listed in a book, and players have to remember what they do (or write it down), it still works. Granted, I personally agree that having the abilities on cards is way better, but who am I to decide what other people want.

edit: also, could you please take the "illiterate discussion" to its own thread, this thread is for discussing the Player's guide preview.

Well I am a player who has been very vocal about this new direction for the game.  It seems like this argument goes black and white for most people: you love it or hate it.  I am in the middle, on the fence. 

I am NOT against bringing new players into the game, the additional rule content it offers me, the quick reference style of these manuals, or anything else that this new edition brings to the table (sorry, it is a new edition imo...sure it updates old rules, but most new editions do precisely that...LO5R for example).   My concern is only for the longevity of component play and the future of the component play style after its release.  

There's a lot of ways I can see this shaking down, but as it stands now, if I had to inform a NEW customer to get into the game this is what it looks like:

Sales Pitch One:  

Sales Person:  Well you can buy these three hardback books that contain all the information and rules to play the game and these four dice sets and you will have everything you need to play.  Or you could buy this outdated rules set in the core manual plus all these additional box sets to get the same rules contained in these three hardbacks.  

Customer:  Why do I need the boxes. 

Sales Person:  Well the components help you manage what you can write down on the character sheet.  It is a faster, cleaner interface with the mechanic and helps you play the game that way. 

Customer:  Oh.  You said the rules in the core are outdated. 

Sales Person:   Yeah.  They are outdated.  FFG updated the rules system with the hardbacks, streamlining the system with better explanations and the addition of a few new mechanics. 

Customer:  And that's not in the core box? 

Sales Person:  No.  It's not. 

Customer:  Well, I want the cards, but I want the updated rules. 

Sales Person:  Okay, well if you want to go that way, I suggest you buy the three cores and these three vaults.  The vaults contain all the cards in the core box and you'll have all the rules from these other expansion boxes in this core book. 

Customer:  Yeah, but where do I get the cards from those expansions? 

Sales Person:  Well, you have to still get those other boxes.  The cards for the complete rules are spread out over those three boxes.  Though buying the two vaults will give you some of the components there. 

Customer:  So, what you're saying is, to get the complete component play, with fully up to date rules, I need to buy three hardback books, three vaults, and three expansions.   

Sales Person:  Yes. 

Customer:  Oh.  But the three hardbacks have everything in them, just no cards? 

Sales Person:  Yes. 

Customer:  I'll take the hardbacks then. 

Now, this conversation does mean that the sales person is familiar with what they are peddling.  They are also familiar enough to understand the difference between the two products and what it really entails to get the complete component set.  Because, for the new edition a component player has to spend:  80 dollars on books, 60 dollars on vaults, 48 dollars on dice, and another 130 dollars on past expansions to get all the cards.  Even though they already have the rules, the cards are in those other boxes.  So now a component player who already has everything from Winds of Magic has everything but the actual winds of magic action cards.  This measures in compared to the 80 dollars to get the same information you need from the hardbacks. 

I know this may be the designers vision of a great product and they think consumers will continue to buy cards because it is the "better" way to play, but honestly, looking at the price difference, 300+ compared to the 80 (plus dice) is a huge difference.

This is then exaggerated by the fact that places such as Barnes and Noble will stock the books where as they will not stock the boxes (as I have never seen them at either major book house).  Furthermore, stores will be able to cut their shelf space in half by simply stocking the cores, but not the boxes.  These two factors will make the hardback version more openly available to new players compared to the hardback. 

In the ends, all of the factors listed above may show an increase in hardback sales over the component play pieces.  This means, on paper, the hardback is preferred over component play.  In the end, one will reach a higher rate of financial return. 

Furthermore, I don't buy FFG's:  this is a one time thing line.  It won't be.  I don't know if it will be every year, but eventually, everything is going to get combined into hardbacks.  If hardbacks sell better than components, I can easily see them leading with them a few years from now, and components coming out later, if at all. 

Plus, if the hardback mechanism becomes the standard, component play becomes a luxury item.  It will cost way more than to just play from the books. 

Gamers are frugal first typically and they will go for what is cheaper. 

I also see the possibility that the book versions will not be very well received.  Already, people feel they could have been done better because they thought this version would not use things like action cards.  Well it will.  This will be the next level of outcry.  Yeah, I can get them in book form, but the system still sucks!  Personally, I find it insane to try to do this system without the cards and view it, from a pen, paper, and character sheet stand point to be worse than rolemaster ever was.  BUT I DO LOVE the system with components.  

I imagine these books may not be well received by the community as a whole.  What then, will THAT mean when the next wave of public outcry is over the mechanics itself, not over the fiddly-bits? 

I know that's gloomy and admit I will be buying the new edition, FFG has given me currently no reason to believe that the component play style is at all here to stay and will survive this financial maneuver (and I'm all for them making boat loads of cash off of this).  Until that time, I will be waiting for the next "BIG SURPRISE" they throw at me for how they are changing things now.  

Happy Gaming,

Commoner

 



#25 Angelic Despot

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 10:17 AM

I think those are all reasonable concerns, however...

1. We're assuming that 'component-less play' means just that and nothing more.   It could mean that, but I hope they realise that 'component-less' means different rules: modifications will have been made to make this new play work.   I would imagine the possibility for clunkiness will still be there, as the system was originally designed to work with components, but I would be pretty disappointed if their advice for 'component-less play' consisted of nothing more than 'don't use components: write everything down on paper'.

My personal hope is to be able to remove some of the components from play, to leave the playing area less cluttered.   I'll always have the option of adding the missing components back in if I want.   But I do acknowledge that different rules would mean a different (and potentially more popular) way of playing.

2. If anyone is going to reprint anything, it makes sense to make corrections if they're found in time.   Taking the principle one step further, it makes sense to clarify wordings and add examples if it will make your product better.   Doing this to this reprint (or new edition, if you prefer) is a necessity.   The alternative is to say that 'we've found problems but aren't going to fix them'.

Those who don't want to buy the reprinted/revised rules will at worst be no worse off than they were before when it comes to the existing rules.   And I think FFG should make the component-less rules available free as a PDF to address to be fair to the game's fans.

3. If component-less play does become wildly popular and this way of play becomes more economically sensible for FFG to support than with-components there is no need for it to mean an end to components.   As the game is developed for use with components any modifications made to the game to allow for play without components is at this stage in the game's development going to be reversible.   I mean that if component-less rules can be made to work with all of the existing rules, I can't imagine anything so new and different will be invented for the game that it won't be simple to make work with components even if it becomes primarily designed to work for a game that does not use them.

And if that's the case, printed new cards and card-stock is going to be pretty much the only expense involved in supporting with-component play.   As long as the quality of these remains high, I can't see any reason why FFG wouldn't find it profitable to continue to bring these out (even if there's no fanfare).

4. Regarding the sales pitch; if you imagined that these hardback books weren't coming out, any new player would still be faced with the cost of buying lots of expansions if they wanted to be able to use all of the extra rules (whether they cared for the components or not).   RPG companies, including FFG could, in most cases, publish all of the rules in a single book/box if they wished and all of the background in another book/box.   Fact is, they make more money spreading all of that out over multiple releases and fans tend not to mind the excitement of periodic updates.

I wouldn't be too scared that the hardback books will put pressure on FFG to make the existing box-sets obsolete, as what would the alternative be?   The new WFRP (and the supplements in particular) are not very rules-heavy.   If FFG want to keep producing and selling new products for this line, I can't see that it makes sense to compile all of the supplementary material (whether rules - in the future - or components) into a single annual or bi-annual hardback.



#26 willmanx

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Posted 03 October 2010 - 09:27 PM

Majority of my players likes the shiny bits in WFRP3, some just find basic cards useless, some are conservatives and would rather play with pen and papers instead of cards. But they all enjoy the dices and the tokens.

People might play without the other components, for example, by counting rounds, stress and fatigues on a paper, or on standard numbered dices. Progress tracker is just a visual prop to count rounds. Playing without action cards would really be a pain in the mass because you would have to copy all those symbols on 2 sided cards on a blank sheet.



#27 gruntl

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 12:52 AM

commoner said:

 

I know that's gloomy and admit I will be buying the new edition, FFG has given me currently no reason to believe that the component play style is at all here to stay and will survive this financial maneuver (and I'm all for them making boat loads of cash off of this). 

 

 

No reason? But the preview pdf and FAQ clearly states that all upcoming products but the guides will be released as boxes. And that cover products up to next summer.

Q: How about future supplements?
A: These will be released in the same way that we have released our supplements to date (such as "The Gathering Storm" and "Winds of Magic") including both the rules, source materials, and components in one box



#28 djpeterso23662

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 05:14 AM

ffgfan said:

I'm just wondering when this and the rest of Guides & Vaults products will be available? Jay, could You at least say as the month, please?

I noticed over the weekend that Game Trade Magazine #128 lists all three hardcovers and all three vault boxes for November 2010 release.  I hesitate to make too much of this, however, because the issue would have gone to press about the same time that Shifting Shadows was released. 



#29 ffgfan

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 05:40 AM

djpeterso23662 said:

ffgfan said:

 

I'm just wondering when this and the rest of Guides & Vaults products will be available? Jay, could You at least say as the month, please?

 

 

I noticed over the weekend that Game Trade Magazine #128 lists all three hardcovers and all three vault boxes for November 2010 release.  I hesitate to make too much of this, however, because the issue would have gone to press about the same time that Shifting Shadows was released. 

In november? That would be great becouse I can't wait to get all those new products in my hands. I'm still waiting for Signs of Faith and i'm hoping to see it soon.



#30 djpeterso23662

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 01:54 AM

ffgfan said:

ffgfan said:

In november? That would be great becouse I can't wait to get all those new products in my hands. I'm still waiting for Signs of Faith and i'm hoping to see it soon.

 

If you think that's amazing, check this out:  http://amazon.co.uk says the books will release October 30.

 

 



#31 ffgfan

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 05:38 AM

djpeterso23662 said:

If you think that's amazing, check this out:  http://amazon.co.uk says the books will release October 30.

Wow! That would be sweet! I talked about those books with guys from my FLGS and they said that all those Guides&Vaults products will be avaliable in november for sure, maybe a little bit sooner. And about Signs of Faith - it should be avalaible after 20th october. Can't wait to see all those new products and get my hands on them, FFG please release them as soon as You can!



#32 keltheos

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 06:25 PM

 ...quickly to be listed as sold out and delayed shipping until 1/15/11. ;)

 



#33 ffgfan

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:56 PM

keltheos said:

 ...quickly to be listed as sold out and delayed shipping until 1/15/11. ;) 

This could be true but only at amazon. I just ordered them at my FLGS, so I will get  new WFRP products this year. I just hope it will be soon.



#34 keltheos

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:49 AM

Oh yeah, that's Amazon...although I find if you don't get the newest FFG releases within a couple weeks of them hitting the stores you are waiting for a restocking reprint. ;)

When's Faith hitting? ;)



#35 Sunatet

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:19 AM

keltheos said:

When's Faith hitting? ;)

My local store just added it to the offer with release date scheduled on... December...

Thats even more strange, when you know, they have all the guides and vaults scheduled on November (well except Creatures Guide which has also release date set on December).

But thats Europe, maybe something is different here...

Anyway, I ordered it all except the guides (still waiting for some answer from FFG on possibility of collectors edition, and since I have all the boxed stuff I can wait till the guides are out).



#36 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:52 AM

It's been on the boat for a few weeks now. I would guess it arrives and starts shipping within a week or two.


Listen to my actual play podcasts at BeggingForXP.com.

 

Take a look at my Talent Trees (Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion), YT-2400 deck plans for the Lazy Bantha, as well as my other handouts.


#37 ffgfan

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Posted 11 October 2010 - 08:32 PM

Sunatet said:

keltheos said:

 

When's Faith hitting? ;)

 

 

My local store just added it to the offer with release date scheduled on... December...

Thats even more strange, when you know, they have all the guides and vaults scheduled on November (well except Creatures Guide which has also release date set on December).

But thats Europe, maybe something is different here...

Anyway, I ordered it all except the guides (still waiting for some answer from FFG on possibility of collectors edition, and since I have all the boxed stuff I can wait till the guides are out).

I could not agre more with Sunatet., maybe even we share the same FLGS and we don't now about it? According to my friends at the store the avaliability in Europe looks like this:

November: GM Guide & Vault, Players Guide & Vault, Creatures Vault

December: Signs of Faith, Creatures Guide

 

One thing only bothers me - why at the GenCon Jay said that Signs of Faith will be avaliable soon after GenCon? Is december soon? I don't get it. It looks like we are going to get first almost all Guide & Vaults products and after that the Signs of Faith, that should be avaliable earlier.



#38 keltheos

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:34 PM

 Might have suffered from the same issue that TGS did when it first hit the shores (was it TGS? I can't remember) and they had to delay it for some reason (printing issues, packaging, unknown but some quality control situation, I'd guess).

Also, never discount the immense delays products shipped from China can experience once they hit US soil. God Bless Customs. ;)



#39 ffgfan

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 09:41 PM

keltheos said:

 

 Might have suffered from the same issue that TGS did when it first hit the shores (was it TGS? I can't remember) and they had to delay it for some reason (printing issues, packaging, unknown but some quality control situation, I'd guess).

Also, never discount the immense delays products shipped from China can experience once they hit US soil. God Bless Customs. ;)

 

 

No, it was Game Masters Toolkit  I think - it also had a delay becouse of the quality. I think this is the only reason why it's still on the boat. So I think I will wait becouse  I rather will  have a good high quality product then have it sooner in low quality.



#40 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:37 AM

 The guides and vaults are on the Upcoming page, and listed as At the Printers.


Listen to my actual play podcasts at BeggingForXP.com.

 

Take a look at my Talent Trees (Edge of the Empire and Age of Rebellion), YT-2400 deck plans for the Lazy Bantha, as well as my other handouts.





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