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Lily Chen clarification


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#21 Nghtflame7

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 01:58 AM

Elric91 said:

The wording on the card says "Each time lily increases max stamina, she gains 1 point of stamina. Each time lily increases max sanity, she gains 1 point of sanity"

Hmmm, it never has come up in one of my games, but I suppose that if Lily were to gain Duke as an ally she would also be able to gain a point of sanity as well. I'll have to see if I can swing that sometime just for giggles. :-)



#22 ColtsFan76

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 04:56 AM

Nghtflame7 said:

Elric91 said:

 

The wording on the card says "Each time lily increases max stamina, she gains 1 point of stamina. Each time lily increases max sanity, she gains 1 point of sanity"

 

 

Hmmm, it never has come up in one of my games, but I suppose that if Lily were to gain Duke as an ally she would also be able to gain a point of sanity as well. I'll have to see if I can swing that sometime just for giggles. :-)

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 



#23 mageith

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 05:16 AM

mageith: Leo's not a doctor, but he can help others by preventing a stamina or sanity.  A stamina or sanity is worth 2 points.  Lily can protect herself by restoring a sanity or stamina -- Also worth 2 points.

Frank writes: That assertion is wholly unjustifiable. Preventing the loss of a Stamina or Sanity is better than healing one after the fact, because it can stop people from going to the Hospital. So for example: if our Professor was exposed to one or two Stamina loss then he would be at the same point if Leo prevented a loss or he got healed by 1 afterward. But he would be in a much better situation if he suffered a loss of 3 and had one prevented vs. suffering a loss of 3 and having healing available next upkeep. That fact alone makes Leo far superior to the doctor, the psychiatrist, or the martial artist - his power essentially increases people's turn by turn resilience, and the others don't. But beyond that, providing your bonus to any character who needs it is better than providing it to yourself.

Mageith: Wow! You are superlative at superlatives to emphasize (or exagerrate) minor differences.  The net result for the team between Leo and Lily's healing/preventative skills is nearly negliable.  I'll concede that preventing another's damage is superior to healing one's self at the cost of a focus point.  I'm pretty sure I conceded that earlier.  However 2 points is 2 points and their abilities are directly comparable.  So I can't agree with your assertions that one is much better or far superior than the other here. I can go with superior and better, if that will help. 

Frank: Lily's power doesn't do anything at all on those turns in which she wins her fights, goes shopping, or has an uneventful time in another world. If she personally isn't injured, her power is useless next turn. For Leo's power to be invalidated, every single other character has to go uninjured for a whole turn. In a two player game, his ability is useless half as often. In a six player game, his ability is useless one sixth as often.

Mageith: Both of their powers will probably go unused on the first turn.  But if Lily loses more than one stamina or sanity, then she can heal herself while shopping, etc.  Lily's power does take some action by her to kick in and Leo's only requires that someone remember he has it.  Again, in most cases Leo's healing power is superior.  However, Lily as an investigator is as useful as Leo, however which has always been my contention.  In fact, if I were need to rate one or the other as better, I'd always prefer to have Lily except against Glaaki.  Leo is just as good against every Old One.

In fact, when I did my own personal rating of investigators, Leo was the standard for average.  In order to be an average investigator, you had to be able to bring back an average of nearly 2 points TO THE TEAM per turn.  As you stated, Leo can do that practically every turn.  But he can never do better than that.  Any investigator that can't bring back 1 point per turn is a drag on the team (Dexter is the worst since is very weak power is seldom even used.).   Superior investigators bring back more than 2 points per turn, I put Darrell in that category because if he deliberatley uses is skill, he should be able to maximize the good things of encounters and more importantly prevent the horrible gate/monster from appearing. But Gloria is below average even though her power looks similar because she's unlikely to return value and her power will probably only be used 4 times in a normal game.   Three characters were even better than that: Mandy, Daisy and Wendy.  (Being able to remove 1 gate or stop 1 gate/monster automatically qualified an investigator for average or OK status, for example Marie, Kate and Wilson.)

Frank: Even if Lily's power were twice as big as Leo's, it still wouldn't be as good because Leo's works to save people instead of cleaning up next upkeep, and Leo's works to save who needs saving instead of just saving Lily. It's a cooperative game, and cooperative powers are better than selfish powers. Full stop.

Mageith: Absolutely disagree that cooperative powers are better than selfish powers.  Two of the best three top tier investigators are Daisy with the Summon Shantuk spell and Wendy.  Both have selfish powers (though you could construct Daisy to be altruistic if you wanted.).  The third top tier investigator is Mandy, which supports your assertion.   Now I would agree that exactly comparable abilities that help others are superior to powers than are selfish.  For example, Leo would be better than an investigator that has the healing stone power. 



#24 jgt7771

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:09 AM

ColtsFan76 said:

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?


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#25 Kobu

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:47 AM

jgt7771 said:

 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?

Yeah, I don't see a reason she wouldn't gain the point along with the max sanity boost.



#26 ColtsFan76

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 11:41 AM

jgt7771 said:

ColtsFan76 said:

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 

 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?

Alright, I guess it is a bit more tricky than I thought. 

With a typical investigator, Duke gives a boost to your Maximum Sanity AMOUNT, not your actual Sanity Points (the exception being during setup when he grants both).  So she would go up from a Max Sanity of 7 to a Max Sanity of 8.  If she were sitting at 6 Max Sanity points and acquired Duke, she would go up to 7 Max Sanity points.  Does that mean she gains an extra Sanity if she were 6 Sanity points or less?  I am not sure.

Her ability says she gains a Sanity Point when "she increases her Maximum."  Technically, she is not increasing it, the Ally is.

But if you say that she should activate that ability whenever her sanity goes up, then she shoudl get the free point of Sanity as well.  I see the argument but not sure I can buy it just yet.



#27 Nghtflame7

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:44 AM

ColtsFan76 said:

jgt7771 said:

 

ColtsFan76 said:

She would gain Max Sanity, not gain a sainity point. 

 

...uh...

Think about what you just wrote there, ColtsFan.  I suppose it depends on how you interpret separate paragraphs within the Special Ability box...but isn't that exactly what Lily's ability is?

 

 

Alright, I guess it is a bit more tricky than I thought. 

With a typical investigator, Duke gives a boost to your Maximum Sanity AMOUNT, not your actual Sanity Points (the exception being during setup when he grants both).  So she would go up from a Max Sanity of 7 to a Max Sanity of 8.  If she were sitting at 6 Max Sanity points and acquired Duke, she would go up to 7 Max Sanity points.  Does that mean she gains an extra Sanity if she were 6 Sanity points or less?  I am not sure.

Her ability says she gains a Sanity Point when "she increases her Maximum."  Technically, she is not increasing it, the Ally is.

But if you say that she should activate that ability whenever her sanity goes up, then she shoudl get the free point of Sanity as well.  I see the argument but not sure I can buy it just yet.

Yar! I mis-typed when I was writing about Duke, and did in fact mean max sanity. And I still think my interpretation is correct. Though "she" is not causing the the max sanity increas, Duke is, it is "her" max sanity which is increased. Therefore "she" has the effect of having her max sanity increased, and "she" gets the extra brain token to go along with the increase.

Ya 'all have a Happy New Year!



#28 thorgrim

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 03:51 AM

Ahh, but her ability does state that  "Each time Lily increases her maximum Sanity, she gains 1 Sanity. Each time she increases her maximum Stamina, she gains 1 Stamina.

 

So Duke increasing it isn't the same as Lily increasing it.



#29 Tibs

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:54 AM

I think it was written that way because her maximums were going to be changing a lot, specifically at her own whim. Personally, I believe her ability applies to any maximum increases, including Duke and Brinton. But if thematically it is incompatible with her Yin and Yang (which is internal), then I could see that ruling.



#30 Kobu

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 04:59 AM

Reading the whole card again, it does look like the increase of the current numbers is a function of her moving her slider. Somehow I was thinking it was a separate ability.

I'm still trying to figure a way she can work with Yig and not get an auto-win. The only solution I see is to only allow a single increase in stamina or sanity a turn depending on which direction the slider moves. However, this greatly weakens her only ability.

Is Yig the only thing that she breaks? I can't think of anything else. Perhaps it is easier to just alter Yig.



#31 ColtsFan76

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 05:03 AM

thorgrim said:

Ahh, but her ability does state that  "Each time Lily increases her maximum Sanity, she gains 1 Sanity. Each time she increases her maximum Stamina, she gains 1 Stamina.

 

So Duke increasing it isn't the same as Lily increasing it.

Which is the point I am trying to make.  Duke doesn't give people sanity if he is acquired mid game.  He just gives them the potential to go higher.  So in the case of getting paired with Lily, I think his intent shoudl still be followed: she has the potential to increase sanity but does not automatically gain it.

Thematic arguments are always weak, I know.  But her skill is a regeneration of sorts.  Duke's ability is keeping you sane by having a loyal companion.  Because she gets a dog doesn't mean her regeneration kicks in.

Also, her actual Sanity skill slider does not go up when Duke is acquired.  Otherwise she would have to drop her corrseponding Stamina - which isn't how Duke works.  So she doesn't slide the Skill marker, she just adds +1.

I am still sticking with Duke doesn't giver her a Sanity point.



#32 thorgrim

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 05:09 AM

And for a further piece of supporting evidence, a quote from Kevin Wilson himself on Lily Chen's ability:

She only adjusts her SAN/STAM based on the final position of her slider.

 

Since Duke doesn't move her slider, she doesn't heal a point of Sanity.



#33 Tibs

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 05:55 AM

thorgrim said:

And for a further piece of supporting evidence, a quote from Kevin Wilson himself on Lily Chen's ability:

She only adjusts her SAN/STA based on the final position of her slider.

 Since Duke doesn't move her slider, she doesn't heal a point of Sanity.

 

That quote is out of context, and placed back into context, it means that her points are healed when you stop moving the sliders, as opposed to being healed with each intermediary click—negating the possibility for a "slider toggle san/sta heal" in one upkeep.

His answer there, as well as the original explanation for her use of a slider, were ambiguous enough to allow multiple interpretations. For example, the quote you cited above implies that if the slider end two spaces away that she will heal two points of that stat. But it could just as easily mean one point regardless, just noting that it's either a point of sanity or stamina—never both.

I'm still in the school that believes she should receive only one point so that she's not immune to Yig's attack (Epic Battle notwithstanding).

As for the relevant topic, I find ColtsFan's interpretation as most convincing, and I may stop allowing a point heal with Duke or Brinton (as if we'd ever had them join Lily before).



#34 jgt7771

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 11:31 AM

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I recall an old thread with a debate I lost regarding those Gate Encounter cards that close Gates for you.  The specific one that comes to mind is a Speed Check to see if you can make it through a collapsing Gate before it closes on you.  Pass: Return to Arkham.  Fail: Lost in Time and Space.  Either way, Gate is closed.

The debate was whether or not one could Seal the Gate after it was closed.  I said no, because it wasn't YOU who was closing the Gate, it was the CARD that was closing the Gate.  Rather quickly, I was denounced, outnumbered, and overruled, possibly by Kevin himself, and those Gates were allowed to be Sealed.  (Unless I am mistaken?)

So the blending of "personal pronouns", "play as written", and "thematically correct" is a somewhat fractured device...


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#35 Frank

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 11:33 PM

Count me up as someone who openly scoffs at people who try to semantically differentiate a character doing something vs. a character doing something because another card gave them a benefit allowing that something to be done. That's not just wrong, it's insultingly silly semantic finagling. What's next? Are people going to try to convince us that weapon cards ignore Physical Resistance because they affect the combat check and thus aren't directly benefiting "you?" It's an empty line of reasoning, a senseless exercise in armchair formal logical semantics on a game that is written in natural English and isn't even subject to such  formalities.

 

Now that being said, while I 100% support the idea that Lily as written gains a Sanity point when she picks up Duke (which honestly everyone should get anyway, because Duke is such a weak ally), I think it equally obvious that the concept sketch of the errata that Lily will get (eventually) would exclude such a gain. Kevin said that she was going to be limited to gaining based on the final position during Upkeep. And while we genuinely don't know whether this is intended to put a stop to twiddling for 1 Stamina and 1 Sanity or to globally reduce her to a gain of one Stamina or one Sanity each turn - the fact remains that either way she's limited to only gaining Stamina or Sanity during upkeep which is a time that one rarely gets Duke. So if sh picks up Duke during the Arkham Encounters phase, she wouldn't get a Sanity point because it isn't the end of Upkeep by definition.

 

-Frank






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