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FAQ / Clarifications on Guide & Vault Products and the WFRP Release Schedule


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#41 ffgfan

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 09:25 PM

plutonick said:

I suppose Jay Little knows more than little.

I sure he knows more and I hope he will share his knowledge with us.

Preaty please Jay! give us a little more info about all of this and maybe some more sneak picks?



#42 Ghiacciolo

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 08:12 PM

Omg...the product line now is just a BIG MESS!!

what puzzle me more is...what the hell is inside the player vault??! are u really saying that it contains ALL the cards from core set + ALL the cards from winds of magic + ALL the cards from sign of faith + basic action for one more players??! and what about carrer sheets (from all this expansion), and new carrers/action cards from adventurer's guide box?? they are also in???

c'mon..it can be that they are condensing 90% of the "bitz" printed until now in a single product....

 

PS: cant believe they are doing this move...why dont they just sell the various books unboxed, and upload the "one or two pages rules to play without components", so the naysayers of the ORIGINAL and SUCCESFULL game concept could stop complain and all will be fine???!



#43 dvang

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 08:53 PM

Ghiacciolo said:

Omg...the product line now is just a BIG MESS!!

what puzzle me more is...what the hell is inside the player vault??! are u really saying that it contains ALL the cards from core set + ALL the cards from winds of magic + ALL the cards from sign of faith + basic action for one more players??! and what about carrer sheets (from all this expansion), and new carrers/action cards from adventurer's guide box?? they are also in???

c'mon..it can be that they are condensing 90% of the "bitz" printed until now in a single product....

 

PS: cant believe they are doing this move...why dont they just sell the various books unboxed, and upload the "one or two pages rules to play without components", so the naysayers of the ORIGINAL and SUCCESFULL game concept could stop complain and all will be fine???!

What will happen is that new supplements will appear in the same manner as they have in the past (with the exception of including the new monster cards).  Likely, at some point in the distant future a new hardcover guide or (more likely just) a vault, will be produced that will contain the "new" information covering information since the first one.

Yes, the players vault has all the player-usable cards up to Signs of Faith, and talents, etc from what Jay said.

The Core Set is a single purchase item that is everything needed for the GM + 3 (or more) players to play the game with just that purchase.

It is not 90% of the bitz being condensed, although it is quite a bit of it, yes.



#44 ozean

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 10:53 PM

Ghiacciolo said:

why dont they just sell the various books unboxed, and upload the "one or two pages rules to play without components", so the naysayers of the ORIGINAL and SUCCESFULL game concept could stop complain and all will be fine???!

I guess one of the reasons is that so many people have (justifiedly) complained about the editing and organization of the core rulebook that it really made sense both for them and the community to issue new rulebooks that make things easier and that include the errata. That way they can sell new stuff and we get better or at least better organized content – without invalidating whatever we have bought so far. For me, this is not a problem at all – although I am not sure if I will have the money to pay for the new guides – as I am already having better roleplaying sessions with the stuff that I have bought so far than I ever did before. So yay for WFRP!



#45 pumpkin

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 01:45 AM

dvang said:

Yes, the players vault has all the player-usable cards up to Signs of Faith, and talents, etc from what Jay said.

Where is it specifically that Jay has said that the vault will contain all of those?

I've seen that the players guide will contain all info on players cards up to Signs of faith, but the Vault only talks about replication of the cards from the core box; has it been confirmed that all the player-usable cards will be in the vault, and if so where, I thought that was just still speculation?

 



#46 ozean

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 02:11 AM

pumpkin said:

 

dvang said:

 Yes, the players vault has all the player-usable cards up to Signs of Faith, and talents, etc from what Jay said.

  

Where is it specifically that Jay has said that the vault will contain all of those?

 

I think the clue here is that he said this – not wrote this As far as I understood it, this is information dvang got from Jay when he talked with him at GenCon or when he participated in The Vicious Little Seminar.



#47 pumpkin

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 04:43 AM

ozean said:

pumpkin said:

 

dvang said:

 Yes, the players vault has all the player-usable cards up to Signs of Faith, and talents, etc from what Jay said.

  

Where is it specifically that Jay has said that the vault will contain all of those?

 

I think the clue here is that he said this – not wrote this As far as I understood it, this is information dvang got from Jay when he talked with him at GenCon or when he participated in The Vicious Little Seminar.

 

Thanks yer, I've caught Dvang's other post about GenCon now.

So I guess my question is now, if i am thinking of getting the GM's guide (because the healing clarifications and other bits might prove useful), then do i look to think about getting the player's guide and vault, and forget about buying Signs of Faith because all the info from that will be in the other three products...



#48 dvang

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 05:07 AM

I'm still a bit fried, but I am pretty sure that Jay said at the seminar that the Player's Vault will include all the current PC-usable action cards. I could be mistaken (it's been a long weekend), so Jay when you read this, feel free to post and correct me so I'm not sowing disinformation and confusing people.

Keep in mind that not everything from the supplements is included in the various Guides/Vaults.  Most noticeably, the excellent adventures as well as any background information that might be included in one of the supplements.

With just those, you've got a good incentive to pick the supplements up in addition to the guides/vaults.

Edit: Looking at the picture of the Players Vault slide, I am thinking the PV actually does NOT include any career cards, since none are shown on the slide.  Action cards and talents, yes. So, if that is the case, the supplements will be needed for the careers as well.

Oh yeah, and by the way ... just so you know the WFRP Dev team is basically 2 people, Jay and Dan (I'm not talking about artists or playtesters, just game Dev).  Look at the amount of stuff they've currently put out, and all the stuff they're planning on putting out in the next year.  These guys are working VERY hard to get a lot of stuff out to us as fast as they can, and I think they're doing a remarkable job.

 



#49 pumpkin

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 06:50 AM

dvang said:

 

  These guys are working VERY hard to get a lot of stuff out to us as fast as they can, and I think they're doing a remarkable job.

 

 

 

 

I concur, and what's more the stuff they are producing is of great quality visually and currently far less "buggy" than some other RPG releases. To have the majority of rules on the cards and to have only a few cards with typos on and only a couple that actually need amending for game balance is a real feat, IMO.

With all due repsect to the DH guys, the amount of errata and clarifications on that rule book is less than desirable, in contrast, although they took that printing over from BI, didn't they, not that i am pointing any fingers because I lack any relevant information or inside knowlegde to suggest why that ruleset is so buggy...I am just making a contrast to show how spot on the 3rd edition production is...



#50 PBnJ

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:44 AM

The way I see it is they will make the box set as is and the vaults and hard covers will follow after.  It sounds pretty good to me and Im a Box?bitz player.

Now I can just get the players Vault and add exter players, Cards and now 2+ players can be the same class type. Now I don't have to buy another Big Box Sarted.  Works for me.  You can extras of what you need no more no less.  Also your players can buy a palyers book for themselfs now if that is all they are looking for. 

 

Did not see and sighs of dice in the players/GM vault so the BOX big over all is still the better buy.

As for the Lite play style won't really know what to think about that till I read it.

That it.

LOve the game!

On a side note How many of you posted that this format would be welcomed as a RPG style for  Runebound/Descent world. 

Just my two cents.



#51 Darrett

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 06:23 PM

As an aside to the discussion, did anyone else note the Inevitable City reference?

Only exists in the Warhammer Online timeline (as far as I recall).

Home of the Raven Host and Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch's Champion).

 

Obviously, this innocuous reference means there's a setting shift going on to fall in line with the video game. Speculate and instill panic below.



#52 ffgfan

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:08 PM

Ok, so after the GenCon I've seen some and now my opinion is:

I"M GOING TO BUY IT ALL! That's for sure.

I'ts looking great. The Creatures G&V will have a lot of new stuff in it so it's a must buy for everybody. The Players G&V looks great - over 300 pages of info for players and GM (all in one book), oh and the Vaults will have some extra cards for the next player so we can take build up players team. The GM G&V are looking cool especialy when I hear that in the Vault will be some extra dice included (12 dice that is).

So this is going to make the end of the year very expensive but it's worth it. I can only hope that the Edge Of Night and the Signs Of Faith will be soon avaliable.



#53 heptat

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:45 PM

Darrett said:

As an aside to the discussion, did anyone else note the Inevitable City reference?

Only exists in the Warhammer Online timeline (as far as I recall).

Home of the Raven Host and Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch's Champion).

 

Obviously, this innocuous reference means there's a setting shift going on to fall in line with the video game. Speculate and instill panic below.

 

Was this in Jay's answer about Slaanesh? I wouldn't read too much into it, he probably has played his fair share of WAR...I thought WAR was pretty much "dead" now?



#54 macd21

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 07:56 PM

Darrett said:

As an aside to the discussion, did anyone else note the Inevitable City reference?

Only exists in the Warhammer Online timeline (as far as I recall).

Home of the Raven Host and Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch's Champion).

 

Obviously, this innocuous reference means there's a setting shift going on to fall in line with the video game. Speculate and instill panic below.

No, it appeared in the Tome of Corruption for v2, possibly elsewhere.



#55 Ghiacciolo

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 11:39 PM

Stil non-sense to me...

1. IF i want to play whit bitz, is better to get the boxes

2. IF i want to play completely cardless/bitzless, i can get guides...and then WHY  should I get vaults too??

3. IF i want a new player in, is better to get adventurers box...WHY should I get a vault that dont have carrers sheets in??

4. IF i want expanded rules on magic and faith, is better to get the boxes...WHY should i get a vault that doesnt have carrer sheets, nor the NPC actions??! ESPECIALLY FOR JUST 10$ LESS?????!!! c'mon...

 

And above else...what the heck is that bestiary thing??!

 

5 IF i want new monsters, i must get a guide + a vault, for the price of 70$??!  i hope is the biggest expansion ever made, otherwise we should ask better for a cheaper BOX in the 50$ price-tag as they've done for winds of magic or signs of faith...not counting the risk that one product could get sold-out before the other, potentially leaving GM whit a mutilated product on his shelf...

In the end, until i see the actual content-summary for the vaults, i cant see how they can be useful somehow...



#56 pumpkin

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 12:37 AM

Ghiacciolo said:

 

Stil non-sense to me...

1. IF i want to play whit bitz, is better to get the boxes

 

 

Agreed.

Ghiacciolo said:

 

2. IF i want to play completely cardless/bitzless, i can get guides...and then WHY  should I get vaults too??

 

 

I don't think you have to, thats the point. It seems like the guides are for those people that want to play without all the chits, so for cardless play you would not need the vaults, is my understanding.

Ghiacciolo said:

 

3. IF i want a new player in, is better to get adventurers box...WHY should I get a vault that dont have carrers sheets in??

 

 

I don't think it is better to get the Adventurer's box for a new player. The vault has a whole stack of action cards in over and above what is in the adventurer's toolkit; the vault provides all cards for the player regardless of career (with the exception of the career cards it seems). You don't really need the career cards in play though, they are primarily used for levelling up. They do have slots on but a slight amendment to the character sheet solves that problem; we don't have career cards on the table during play because they just take up room.

Ghiacciolo said:

 

4. IF i want expanded rules on magic and faith, is better to get the boxes...WHY should i get a vault that doesnt have carrer sheets, nor the NPC actions??! ESPECIALLY FOR JUST 10$ LESS?????!!! c'mon...

 

 

Yes, i think it is better to get the boxes BUT it all depends on your outlook, if you are a single player looking to get a foot hold into an existing group, it may be prudent to buy the players guide (and maybe the vault).. I wouldn't reccomend that a player buy the SoF/WoM box just to get into a game.

Ghiacciolo said:

 

And above else...what the heck is that bestiary thing??!

 5 IF i want new monsters, i must get a guide + a vault, for the price of 70$??!  i hope is the biggest expansion ever made, otherwise we should ask better for a cheaper BOX in the 50$ price-tag as they've done for winds of magic or signs of faith...not counting the risk that one product could get sold-out before the other, potentially leaving GM whit a mutilated product on his shelf...

 

 

As Dvang has said in other posts, you can get by with buying either of the Creature products and getting the new creature info. I agree that perhaps if this was done as an "old style" relase (like SoF or WoM) then it might have worked out slightly cheaper for the same overall NEW info, but then that product would not have included a book containing all existing monsters, which personally, i can find a use for, so i am 80% content with the way this product has gone.

Ghiacciolo said:

 

In the end, until i see the actual content-summary for the vaults, i cant see how they can be useful somehow...

 

 

I think I will do the same, and for you they may well not be useful. I can see now though that the products are aimed at getting new people into the game rather than being a neccessary buy for people already playing the game (especially for GM's who likely already have all existing material). The players guide/vaults could have a place in an existing group, espicially if they want to add a player or two, which is fine.

I think some of the initial concerns were around that these products had to be bought by existing groups to keep up to date with the latest rules, while effectively re-buying material that they already owned. It is now pretty obvious that this is not the case, with the slight exception of the Creature series, which does contain information I already own but I need to buy it for the new creatures, but I am happy to do that.

I think the concerns that this would see the end of the chit based system or a serious U-turn in the WFRP V3 methodolgy and design that Jay and Dan have worked so hard to produce is also now not the case.

I think the message form FFG is (although initially it may have been somewhat garbled) that these new products are just giving you different methods of getting the relevant info to play the type of WFRP V3 game you want to play. If you want to be a non chit based player, there is a product for you. If you want to add extra players into your chit based group, there is a product for you, and if you have supported this game from the beginning and have all exisintg material then there is no need to worry because numerous great new products are coming out over the next year; I myself can't wait to get my hands on witch's song and see if they have managed to integrate lesser magics and hedge wizardry into the setting in a better way than 2nd ed did, and my money reckons Jay and Dan have done it brilliantly and with innovation and that it melds beautifully into the existing product, rather than an obvious add on (which unfortunately is how i felt about 2nd ed hedge wizardy to a certain extent)

 



#57 cronevald

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 01:50 AM

macd21 said:

 

Darrett said:

 

As an aside to the discussion, did anyone else note the Inevitable City reference?

Only exists in the Warhammer Online timeline (as far as I recall).

Home of the Raven Host and Tchar'zanek (Tzeentch's Champion).

 

Obviously, this innocuous reference means there's a setting shift going on to fall in line with the video game. Speculate and instill panic below.

 

 

No, it appeared in the Tome of Corruption for v2, possibly elsewhere.

 

 

 

It goes as far back as Realm of Chaos;  Slaves to Darkness.  It (and Bastion Stair which is also featured in Warhammer Online) were section lead ins accompanied by a full page of Ian Miller artwork. 



#58 mcv

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 03:21 AM

pumpkin said:

I concur, and what's more the stuff they are producing is of great quality visually and currently far less "buggy" than some other RPG releases.

Some, but not many. Wasn't there a 7-page errata sheet for the Core Set a few weeks after release? And even after that, a lot of people still struggle with the amazingly simple rules of WFRP. Perhaps I've been spoiled by the (amazingly good) proofreading and editing of Steve Jackson Games (I used to be a GURPS fan before I'd gotten tired of the amazing complexity of the system), but I'm not aware of any major RPG publishers whose main rulebook is as badly organized as the WFRP Core Set rulebook. And if you look at their boardgames, it's clear that FFG really isn't very good at writing clear and concise rulebooks.

I'm glad they're fixing it, because the system of WFRP is very very promising, and some of the ideas in it are amazing. It deserves a better execution than it got first time around.



#59 pumpkin

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 08:26 AM

mcv said:

pumpkin said:

 

I concur, and what's more the stuff they are producing is of great quality visually and currently far less "buggy" than some other RPG releases.

 

 

Some, but not many. Wasn't there a 7-page errata sheet for the Core Set a few weeks after release? And even after that, a lot of people still struggle with the amazingly simple rules of WFRP. Perhaps I've been spoiled by the (amazingly good) proofreading and editing of Steve Jackson Games (I used to be a GURPS fan before I'd gotten tired of the amazing complexity of the system), but I'm not aware of any major RPG publishers whose main rulebook is as badly organized as the WFRP Core Set rulebook. And if you look at their boardgames, it's clear that FFG really isn't very good at writing clear and concise rulebooks.

I'm glad they're fixing it, because the system of WFRP is very very promising, and some of the ideas in it are amazing. It deserves a better execution than it got first time around.

There is an errata sheet, but not much of that is actually things in the book that are wrong, more clarifications to make things 100% clear for those that need them. I also don't have any real issues with the core rulebook. I think a lot of people's problems with it stem from the fact they expect it to be a full rule book, whereas the rules for the system are spread across the books and the cards.

I also take the time to read rule books and the like several times until I am completely familiar with the rule set I am playing with, so perhaps I am different to the norm in that sense, perhaps peoples problems with the rule set is because they expect to fully understand it after a single read through, I'm not sure?

I still think it compares favourably to the omissions and errors in my DH rulebook, and some of the 2nd ed books too, that had some terrible formatting and editing, in places (not so much the rule book in that case, just some of the subsequent releases).



#60 mcv

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 10:02 PM

pumpkin said:

I also don't have any real issues with the core rulebook. I think a lot of people's problems with it stem from the fact they expect it to be a full rule book, whereas the rules for the system are spread across the books and the cards.

Tables with the stuff on cards would be nice, but I can live without them. My real problem with the rulebook is that it takes something really simple and spreads it out over several chapters, making it appear very complex. I think all the actual rules could easily fit in a single chapter, but instead it drags on and on and on, with paragraph after paragraph with no real content, only hinting that the content I'm looking for will come later. And it will, hidden deep in some other paragraph.

There's no structure to the way the rules are presented. It's a very sloppy first draft. Some rules are repeated all over the place, others (that are no less important) are really hard to find, or only vaguely hinted at. Some aspects of the rules start with some really cool ideas, and then fail to follow through with their execution. The few times when there is some structure, the list of what you can do with a maneuver, for example, it raises more questions than it answers. (A maneuver for a skill roll? Any skill roll in the middle of combat? Really?)

In order to fix it, they shouldn't simply add some tables and clarifications, they need to throw all the chapters on task resolution and combat out, and reqrite them completely. Preferably in a single chapter, because the rules really are that simple, if only you write them down clearly.

pumpkin said:

I also take the time to read rule books and the like several times until I am completely familiar with the rule set I am playing with, so perhaps I am different to the norm in that sense, perhaps peoples problems with the rule set is because they expect to fully understand it after a single read through, I'm not sure?

The system is simple enough that it should be understandable in a single read-through, I think. Mostly it needs to be more concise, rather than having paragraphs of meaningless prose that goes on and on and on. The problem isn't that the rules are too hard, the problem is that it's unnecessarily hard. The system is simple, and you can save a lot of paper by presenting it in a more concise and simple manner.

It reads like the author was paid by the word, and that's a really bad way to reward sloppy writing.






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