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Sifting through Shadows >> A preview of upcoming Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay titles


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#41 gruntl

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:19 PM

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online. 

You think  that hasn't happened already with all of the components?

Planning the way you release products to avoid being pirated is utterly stupid and just shows that you have no grasp of how easy illegal copying is. Mind, I'm not supporting piracy, but this statement is just flawed.

My gripe isn't as much that they're repackacking the old content in chit-less form, but that for the future expansions, this will be the rule as well. That to me is a gentle slope to a silent death for the chit-based system... Meaning in the end we'll have to buy every expansion we've already bought, a second time, in chit-less.

Why would it mean the end of the chit-based system? We who really like the system and are already playing will continue to buy the components. The people who really didn't like them will not buy them, but they will at least buy the books. Win-win for FFG (and us, if we want FFG to keep supporting the game).

To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.

Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.

handful of new players who cried "Descent clone",
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.

edit: added reply to the latest post

 

 



#42 pumpkin

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 09:48 PM

HedgeWizard said:

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 

 

These are the same questions I have as well (and posted on the announcement thread). 

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

 



#43 ffgfan

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:18 PM

This all is so AMAZING!. I can't believe my eyes what I'm seeing.

YNNEN YOU ARE THE MAN! THANKS FOR THE GREAT JOB YOU"RE DOING!

Those new title are looking brilliant. Can't wait to have theme im my hands. And this new format - wow - that's the only word I can say!

I love the idea of hardcover books - I'm going to buy theme as soon as those will be avaliable in Europe.

I't looking like we are not just bean heared by the FFG but also they lisen and show to us how fans are importent to them.

We not anly gonna get some great supplements but also adventures and much more.

I'm really impresed by all this.

Now this years CVhristams shoping will be special for daddy! (My wife is gonna kill but it worth it!)



#44 willmanx

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:19 PM

 

 

pumpkin said:

 

HedgeWizard said:

 

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 

 

These are the same questions I have as well (and posted on the announcement thread). 

 

 

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

 

 

 

+9. That's what my players are asking too.



#45 Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:29 PM

I'm stunned, I have to say. Personally, I'm particularly interested in the Creature Vault and the witch-themed adventure, especially the former because we've been needing a vastly expanded bestiary and a much more GM-friendly way to keep track of their actions etc.

I have no need for hardcover books, but I think it's amazing that FFG are willing to publish those for those who don't like "chits 'n bits". Personally, I'm a full-blown chits 'n bits kinda guy and I'm not ashamed of it:)

 


www.audioepics.com


#46 Armoks

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:38 PM

pumpkin said:

HedgeWizard said:

 

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 

 

These are the same questions I have as well (and posted on the announcement thread). 

 

 

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

 

pumpkin said:

HedgeWizard said:

 

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 

 

These are the same questions I have as well (and posted on the announcement thread). 

 

 

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

 

+10. I believe Jay must have a good explanation in order to rise up to our expectations, because buying all the new stuff is 'rather' expensive.

 

From the preview: 

For instance: "Creature Vault

Featuring cards, sheets, and other components that supplement the The Creature Guide hardcover book, this expansion provides GMs with a new way to build and run encounters."

I have a bad feeling... Calm down, calm down...

 



#47 ffgfan

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 10:39 PM

willmanx said:

 

 

pumpkin said:

 

HedgeWizard said:

 

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 

 

These are the same questions I have as well (and posted on the announcement thread). 

 

 

Exactly what I need to know too and for exactly the same reasons.

 

 

 

+9. That's what my players are asking too.

willmanx said:

 

 

pumpkin said:

 

HedgeWizard said:

 

Ransom said:

 

I have a question:

If I/my group already have the core set, the Adventurer's Toolkit, the Gamemaster's Toolkit, and the two magic/religion expansions, and IF we want to play with the components (ie, I don't care about new rules for component-less play), will the hardcover books and/or the "vaults" add any additional content to what we already have?

In other words, will the books and components be reorganizations of what is already in the previous products, or will there be signficant, new content? And will the new content go beyond examples of play?

 


 

 

+9. That's what my players are asking too.

The Spaniard sayed on the front page:

"Jay will have a more comprehensive FAQ tomorrow, but suffice to say, there is nothing to be concerned about for owners of the Core Set. There is nothing critical in the "Guides" or "Vaults" (other than the Creature Guide/Vault) that you'll need in terms of new content or rules. They'll be great if you're looking for reference tables for the cards/components/careers, more examples, more copies of the rules for the table, etc, but they do not replace the still-valid Core Set. The Core set remains the principal tool for a new group to get into the game, and is the best value in town for what you get.

They allow more options for existing groups (easier to add new players and add incremental content), traditional RPG'ers, and give new groups the option to split the purchases between GM and Player if they desire.

As I said, rest easy, more details from Jay tomorrow.

cP
FFG"

So be pacient - I think Jay will give us all the anwsers tomorrow.



#48 Daedalum

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:01 PM

It makes total sense. Otherwise how could you expect an easy entry point for new players three years down the release track. I'd look at the CoreBox, Keepers Set, Adventures, 4 chaos sets, various adventures etc and feel a bit overwhelmed at the prospect of getting up to speed. If every year the key rules were consolidated into a few hard-backs, it'll make buy-in easy years into the product line.



#49 zombieneighbours

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:21 PM

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online.


Nothing actually stops anyone doing exactly that with the current system.

If your technically savvy enough to scan a book, your technically savvy enough to scan cards.



#50 pumpkin

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:47 PM

ffgfan said:

The Spaniard sayed on the front page:

"Jay will have a more comprehensive FAQ tomorrow, but suffice to say, there is nothing to be concerned about for owners of the Core Set. There is nothing critical in the "Guides" or "Vaults" (other than the Creature Guide/Vault) that you'll need in terms of new content or rules. They'll be great if you're looking for reference tables for the cards/components/careers, more examples, more copies of the rules for the table, etc, but they do not replace the still-valid Core Set. The Core set remains the principal tool for a new group to get into the game, and is the best value in town for what you get.

They allow more options for existing groups (easier to add new players and add incremental content), traditional RPG'ers, and give new groups the option to split the purchases between GM and Player if they desire.

As I said, rest easy, more details from Jay tomorrow.

cP
FFG"

So be pacient - I think Jay will give us all the anwsers tomorrow.

I am sure he will, but I want to make sure that in those answers Jay fully expands on what the word "critical" in that setence means.

The GM's toolkit isn't "critical" in terms of its content, but it is a very nice to have and does have lots of new content; in fact nothing other than the core set is actually critical to play the game (others might disagree that the core set isn't complete, but factually to play the game, it is all thats needed)

If by the word critical, it actually means there is no new content in those products, it is simply a re-ordering of existing material along with improved examples of play, then fine.

But if those products have any "exclusive" new content that can actually improve my gaming experience, then I'll be slightly annoyed, for the same reasons other people have mentioned, if i have to go out and buy that product perhaps 90% of which i already have, just to get that 10% new material.

It seems the creature vault/book has "a lot" of new material, as that has already been classed as critical in FFG's response, so its a given that will need purchasing for existing GMs, but it is much less clear who the other two hard back books and asosciated vaults are aimed at, IMO.

 



#51 plutonick

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:07 AM

I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.

 

I am waiting for Jay's FAQ, but I, as others have already posted,  have a bad feeling about this too.



#52 commoner

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:35 AM

gruntl said:

Dumb move imho. It will leave them open once again to somebody simply scanning this hardcover book and putting it online. 

You think  that hasn't happened already with all of the components?

Planning the way you release products to avoid being pirated is utterly stupid and just shows that you have no grasp of how easy illegal copying is. Mind, I'm not supporting piracy, but this statement is just flawed.

My gripe isn't as much that they're repackacking the old content in chit-less form, but that for the future expansions, this will be the rule as well. That to me is a gentle slope to a silent death for the chit-based system... Meaning in the end we'll have to buy every expansion we've already bought, a second time, in chit-less.

Why would it mean the end of the chit-based system? We who really like the system and are already playing will continue to buy the components. The people who really didn't like them will not buy them, but they will at least buy the books. Win-win for FFG (and us, if we want FFG to keep supporting the game).

To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.

Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.

handful of new players who cried "Descent clone",
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.

edit: added reply to the latest post

 

 

gruntl said:

To Commoner:
Why the doom and gloom? At the moment you seem to be interpreting the news in the most negative way you can. You seem to think that you've been personally wronged when "having" to buy all the expansions while future players might not have to do that (the future players playing without any components that is)? You're of course entitled to feel that way, but frankly I think that sounds more like whining than constructive feedback.

Macd21 is right, you pay extra for the tokens because you get additional stuff. The change will make it more expensive to play with components, but that is the price you have to pay for freedom of choice.

handful of new players who cried "Descent clone",
That's your way of describing all of the people who were heavily involved in 2e, but felt that components was not something they wanted when playing RPGs? That comes off as quite rude in my opinion. I think the change might attract quite a lot of people from the 1e/2e side to at least try out 3e, certainly more than a handful. You have to realise that the opinions of people hanging around at this forum does not represent the opinions of the whole WFRP fanbase, there's certainly more than a handful people that have asked for this change.

edit: added reply to the latest post

 

 

First off, I know the gaming world is much larger than these boards.  My Descent Clone is an exaggerated point that if you already don't like the game, the books aren't going to change it.  It will still be the same game.  So who are they really going to draw in, but a minority of a minority?  People who need counters replaced apparently by dozens onto dozens of check boxes, and hand copied mini-charts for each action card.  But hey if check boxes is what they needed and if that makes it suddenly a brilliant game to them, well...glad you like the game I've been enjoying.     

Nope. I am not whining all.  Funny you mention it, because whiners created this whole mess and now I'm being called a whiner.  LOL!  I guess what goes around comes around.

Doom and Gloom?  Surely it is.  Sorry I don't catch every ray of sunshine believing it is a brilliant little beacon of hope.  As of the product announcement, it seems on paper to be a bad move for us chit users as it is currently packaged and one that in general, I can't support.  (Much like many of those who think this is absolutely brilliant once believed 3e was a bad move in the first place).  The personal part is, I won't support it until we get clear answers.  So I'll see how I feel after Jay's next post.  But for now, I'm a little off-put by the choice.      

So I guess, genuinely, I'm sorry I'm not jumping on board with the news that this is the "greatest thing" since sliced bread.  Honestly, I'm a little shocked myself as I have been extremely supportive of this new edition ever since I read about the dice.  Unfortunately, now I'm one of a few dissidents against this bold new direction for the game. Murder me for it and call me all kinds of names if you want to, but I just can't get behind it as of what I know right now.  To be honest though, I don't view it as a personal attack either, as I fully accept my insignificance in the world and the fact I don't know everything.  I guess why it may read as personal is I am part of the majority of people who enjoyed the game as is.  You know, the people who bought it in the first place so Jay Little could eat and everybody else who hated it could finally get there special needs edition.   

This forum typically rips on generalities and prefers specific related conversation.  So I took a personal stance.  However, my personal stance is echoed in a handful of other dissidents who agree - this seems like a product relaunch, not a repackaging.  This is not the direction of the game I bought into.  The future of this game now seems uncertain, unfocused, and plainly confused making FFG seem unsure of their own products.  Why did anyone buy all this stuff to simply have it repackaged in a cheaper format?  How will this new format impact the game?  Are we really going to have to rebuy everything we have already bought, just because of the new careers, rules, etc that will be included in the box set?  There will be multiple camps of play and the community will not be cohesive.  I now dread pick-up games at LGS as it may be hard to get all players on the same page on how the game will be ran.  For instance,

GM:  "you take a critical, here is your card." 

Player:  "Get that tainted piece of chitty crap out of my face.  I am a roll on a random table player you idiot." 

GM:  "Oh yeah, sorry.  What page is that chart on?  And do you have that book?  As I never bought it because I've never used it?" 

Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves.  You want chits?  Oh we'll special order it for you.  - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well.  A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon.  This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase.  This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits.  Chit play goes red.  But the books are doing fine.  No more chits. 

These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.         

Macd21 is not right.  Right in that I get additional stuff (when I actually don't, since all I'm getting is cards instead of pages).  But the same argument of why should he have to pay for chits when he is just buying a book works both ways.  Why should I pay extra for a book I'm never going to use because I use chits.  It is not the price I am paying for freedom of choice. It is the price I am being forced to pay by the way The Shadow makes it sound.  The price WE chit-users are going to pay to buy all those fancy charts and pages of reprinted action cards and specialized dice-to-chart rules we are never going to use just for a dozen or so new rules.   So WE end up having to double pay for information we already have!  While those who want just books have the luxury of just buying a book they will use, but not the chits and no additional content they don't want and don't have to pay for.  If that is true, it is a horrible double standard and in fact, as I said before, a penalty for chit users and those of us who supported the game all this time from its announcement.  To be honest, I don't know if forty extra bucks to have the all the monster-stats reprinted on cards is worth it to me, after I had to shell out 30 bucks to get all that information once.  

I also don't know if 70 bucks for a monster book and box is actually worth it either.  That's the most expensive monster manual in the history of mankind. 

By all means, I hope Jay proves me absolutely wrong.  I honestly do.  I will just have to wait and see. 

Oh and onto something personal: 

I'm excited about the new products coming up beyond the hardbacks and vaults.  I just wish the combat box wasn't so far out.  I would rather have seen that this winter than all this other hub-bub, because the game needs it.  It also needs an advanced career box which I don't see.  Hopefully that will come next summer and hopefully all of it will still include cards and chits. The Dwarf Box set is a must!  

I also have never found much practical use for Monster books, but I know other players love them.           



#53 plutonick

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:47 AM

If my native language was english, I would have made written a post, writing exactly what Commoner wrote above.

Commoner, you are not alone.



#54 Armoks

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 12:52 AM

plutonick said:

I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.

IMO, buying the Core Set wasn't a big waste of money, because we have lots of dice now - dice must be bought by those who wants to start playing from 'the new version' of WFPR.

In some way, I regret that I didn't have a chance to choose between those two versions of WFRP from the very beginning.

 

Cheers!



#55 plutonick

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:15 AM

Armoks said:

plutonick said:

 

I own the Core set and GM's toolkit. I hope the Player Guide, Player Vault, GM Guide and GM Vault, has only overlapping and not extra rules or components. Otherwise, why did I bother buying the Core Set? It's wasted space if I have to buy the Guide's and Vault's all over again.

 

 

IMO, buying the Core Set wasn't a big waste of money, because we have lots of dice now - dice must be bought by those who wants to start playing from 'the new version' of WFPR.

In some way, I regret that I didn't have a chance to choose between those two versions of WFRP from the very beginning.

 Cheers!

You can see it the other way then. If I already have the core set, then by buying the player and GM guide will be a waste, since you will only be getting a couple of new rules and examples I will most likely not need anymore, thanks to Dvang and other frequent posters on the boards.

The other option is NOT to buy the guides, but I am a bit of a completist. It would tear me apart not having those books.



#56 Monkus

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:16 AM

I'd just like to echo Commoner's thoughts, which resonate with my own. He's not the only one who feels as if the new books could potentially undercut the card and chits design of the game, a design many of those who actually buy and play the game really enjoy and have invested heavily in, in terms of game time and money. Hopefully, all these concerns will be addressed by Jay in his FAQ.


One question I have is what the impact of this change in strategy will be for other types of supplement. I really enjoyed the way an adventure like the Gathering Storm had additional magic cards, items, conditions and a storm tracking system that could be used in other campaigns. I’m also a big fan of the ‘Ruinous Powers’ boxed sets, where we don’t just get a set of spell cards, but an additional adventure, a host of new careers, items, locations etc so that every dimension of the game as a whole is filled out with each new release. I

’m a little confused as to how future boxed sets and adventures like this will be translated into book-only versions, given the diversity of materials they include; book-lovers will be left with a hodge-podge of rules in different books (exactly the reason why our group prefers the use of cards) or presumably have to wait a significant period of time for a version summarising multiple supplements with a common theme? I hope this doesn’t indicate a change in direction because I thought both ‘The Gathering Storm’ and ‘Winds of Magic’ were fantastic releases and well worth the money.
 



#57 ynnen

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:18 AM

I've now posted a WFRP Product FAQ with additional information regarding the upcoming WFRP release schedule.

 



#58 willmanx

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:26 AM

ynnen said:

I've now posted a WFRP Product FAQ with additional information regarding the upcoming WFRP release schedule.

 

 

Thank you very much, Mister. I really do appreciate your concern and all your amazing work on Warhammer.



#59 zombieneighbours

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:03 AM

commoner said:

 

Additionally, If chit based play is more costly, businesses will not stock the chit versions if they are more expensive than manuals - Simply put, here is the book you can buy off the shelves.  You want chits?  Oh we'll special order it for you.  - Because the fact is 260 dollars for chit users where as buying the books 152 is a big difference. and this freedom of choice in a free market that seems so important the store owner can use as well.  A man who has to worry about the initial investment and how much pricier items are a risk to his investment. And it's such a steep price difference that only a blind, dumb, lame, crippled, deaf, mute, dead person would miss it. And I doubt many of them are going to buy into the game anytime soon.  This means the chit sales will and book sales will increase.  This will lead to an economic illusion that people prefer books to chits.  Chit play goes red.  But the books are doing fine.  No more chits. 

These two products will compete with each other for sales if done poorly and even if they are done well, it seriously has the potential to do so.         

 

 

Well for a start,their isn't an example of a free market anywhere in the world, but getting beyond economics and politics, you have missed one really important fact. What is on sale in shops is no where near as important as it once was. If you want chit, you can order them, either through your flgs or direct from Fantasy flight.

All this really does is make the chits an optional, and fairly useful tool, rather than a neccessity. For me, with a seven mile walk to where i game, a book just makes more sense, so if once i have had the chance to actually run or play 3e, i find i enjoy it, i will be buying the book on top of the box set i already have, so that my gaming table has more than one set of the rules.



#60 Nisses

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:21 AM

Commoner, thanks for more eloquently stating what I tried to, but failed, to convey :)

 

BTW, I'm not stating that I don't think piracy is already happening. I'm stating that it takes about a hundred times less effort to pirate a book and the person that downloads it, print its out on his office printer, than it is to properly print out all the little cards, lined up correctly in recto/verso, cut them out, and laminate/treat them to at least withstand a little bit of abuse.

 

 

However, the post by Ynnen states:

Q: How about future supplements?
A: These will be released in the same way that we have released our supplements to date (such as "The Gathering Storm" and "Winds of Magic") including both the rules, source materials, and components in one box

 

So as far as the future supplements go, apparently nothing changes then.

 






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